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I have a ---parthenogenic egg----from a crested?

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  • I have a ---parthenogenic egg----from a crested?

    This girl has never "been with a male" I have housed her alone, the person I bought her from housed her alone, and yesterday I found a brand new clutch of eggs (she didn't have a laybox and tore up her entire paper towel so I KNOW she just laid them yesterday) and one of the two is strongly fertile.

    She was purchased from her breeders on Feb 12th at 17g, and kept singly at her previous owners, until she arrived at my house on May 3rd. I have never housed her, or even let her come in contact with any other geckos. And her previous owner only let her come into contact with a 42g confirmed female gecko. I am looking into how she was housed while she was at the breeders. I will post that info when I get it.


    I am not claiming that this is a partho egg---but you know, posting this if it is a little mini of her would prolly be good in the long run, right?

    But--is it even plausible that she was bred before Feb, and at under 20g, but did not lay a single clutch until now, five months later?


    I've never heard of a gecko storing sperm until they put on weight. If you breed a small female, she will lay. Right? I mean, I've seen it posted a bunch "oops this girl was housed with a male at the pet store and now she's laying"

    Posting this for input because I am REALLY confused. I had assumed she somehow got in contact with a male at her previous owners, but was assured this was not the case. That time frame made more sense to me--that she had gotten in contact with a male just before being shipped, and 5 wks later, laid her first clutch ever.

    Here is the egg, at one day of incubation. It has a better shell and a stronger cherrio than Bittersweet has had with Bill all year
    (you can make the pic larger by opening it in another window too)


    And this is the lovely Tysha on June 3rd, looking chunky at 32g (she is down below 30g after this clutch) -_______-




    Input? Thoughts? I am thoroughly weirded out.
    Meg
    THE GECKO ALCHEMIST
    on facebook

  • #2
    I can think of a few possibilities. Most likely I think is she was housed with a male by the previous owners. A lot of keepers run out of space, house juvies together thinking "they wont breed this young anyways" and then never admit it. Some females can go a long time between being bred and laying, especially if its their first ever clutch. Second, perhaps its not a fertile egg at all, and there is some sort of mass of some kind in there that is more solid than the rest or even a inconsistency in the shell, so it looks fertile, but really isn't. Or maybe its a freak little partho egg. I'd give that a one in ten billion chance, and even if the egg hatches there is no way to prove without a doubt she was never with a male, but hey it happens in leachies right?
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    • #3
      I am the previous owner, and I am sure that she has not been with a male in my care ( I have had her since February and she was 18-19 grams at the time ). The one other gecko that she had been in contact with is Half n Half, who is now at 41 grams with absolutly no pores or bulge in sight.


      So the question is now sort of down to " is a gecko at 18-19 grams capable of producing viable eggs 5 months later". The longest time I have had a female that has been paired and not produce eggs is 3 months. I know that they can store sperm, but a juvie storing it until it is close to breeding weight?

      I am just trying to figure this out, it's just wierd!
      http://www.iherp.com/Public/Animals/...c-4718745e672d

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      • #4
        Im speaking about gargs here, not cresties but I think it maybe useful input ... I have had eggs from virgin, just mature females that I raised from hatch (so I know they had never been with a male) look like that for about a week or two, then yellow out as the veins collapse. I take it as the females lack of experience but I don't scientifically know the explanation. Also so you know my reason I even bother candling dud eggs... is because its a way to tell how well the eggs are formed so I have an idea of the calcium reserves the females have, since gargs don't have visible cal sacks. I know from speaking to other garg breeders that it has happened to them as well. Give it some time and see. It would be cool if it was fertile, the female is very nice looking.

        Though... if it is fertile I will have to agree with Brian and say that most like it has had contact with a male, at some point.
        Sarah & Jake
        LunarGecko.net
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        • #5
          ... and I should add I have had a female (crestie) store sperm for 8 months with not laying eggs (cold, long winter) and continue to lay for 6 months after that, with no male. Not saying that she was with a male at any point. Just saying I have seen long times between matings happen, with viable eggs.
          Sarah & Jake
          LunarGecko.net
          Feel free to check out our Fauna reviews or follow us on FaceBook!
          You can also check out most of our animals on our iherp page.

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          • #6
            Noah, what were your room temps averaging from Feb-May? She's been warm with me since I've had her--I like my reptile room at 77ish in the summer.

            To me the egg looks fertile. I've had some issues with another breeder this year, and I've seen the "show the cherrio then fade out" thing happening. This looks like a good strong egg. Its comparable to my Tonks eggs, which are always bright red and strong in the beginning.

            BUT I do understand that this is a day old egg, and anything can happen in the coming weeks. The shell on it is perfect though, not a single blemish. If it hadn't have been fertile, I would have just been impressed with how well her body produced the shells themselves.

            I hope that it hatches. I know it will be hard to prove parthonogenesis, but I had to post and get some opinions.

            I was totally baffled, and I'm sure Noah is too. I have never even had a virgin lay infertiles before so this was all new LOL.
            Meg
            THE GECKO ALCHEMIST
            on facebook

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            • #7
              That's just weird and interesting. I would assume a male had been in contact with her. Since there are a few reptiles that are parthenogenic and can turn that switch on and off, I guess it could be possible (in a very very very very very very very long shot (still not enough very's lol)) that Cresteds could form the possibility to be parthenogenic. I realize this is highly unlikely that this would be the case, but if it turned out she was it'd be cool to say the least. Keep us posted on your search for her history!
              1.4.0 Leopard Geckos; 6.4.1.4 Crested Geckos; 0.1.0.1 Mourning Geckos; 0.1.0 Creamsicle Corn Snakes;
              0.1 Hedgehog; 0.2 Mice; 1.4 Felines; 1.1 Canines

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              • #8
                I'm dealing with the same thing, My Female i bought from the hamburg expo laid two eggs. one ended up turning brown. But the other is bright white and fertile. going on over a week now. But the Seller said all her females were virgins. and i'm almost positive my female is gravid again. she was 28.6g when i got her; she had the eggs the next day. now today i weighed her and shes up to 31.7 Heres the one egg:
                Click image for larger version

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                Its alot darker now and looking like a bullseye, so i'm think she got housed with a male unnoticed.

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                • #9
                  It's so difficult to prove a negative with evidence of absence - that a crestie is not parthenogenic because nobody has shown evidence of it. This was true with several, and more are coming to light as time goes on. I don't think it's a very outrageous claim - but there is no evidence. Since most people throw out virgin eggs, there's no real reason to believe it would have shown up before. Especially when many breeding size females are placed with males. Until more people start incubating virgin eggs, we just have speculation.

                  I'm inclined to think it's just something weird going on with the egg and it's not a true "cheerio" - but would love to see the results if it hatches!!!
                  Specializing in Crested Geckos
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                  • #10
                    There are people I know of with leachies who have never been with a male and they've produced fertile eggs that hatched. I got a fertile egg from a bearded dragon that hadn't been with a male since I'd gotten her 4 years before. The egg didn't hatch but when I opened it there was a full-term baby inside. Since it's been proven with some Rhac species, I see no reason why it couldn't occur with others.

                    Aliza

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                    • #11
                      There was a thread on a different forum a while ago (maybe a couple of years?) about someone in a very similar situation. I'm not sure where that thread is now or what the outcome was though.
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                      • #12
                        We have three female gargs and two of them do this. I do not know much past 4 months but they have only been around each other or said to by the previous owner..... At first I thought maybe a male might have have come in contact but a month and half later I see nothing in the eggs~

                        Originally posted by Lunar Gecko View Post
                        Im speaking about gargs here, not cresties but I think it maybe useful input ... I have had eggs from virgin, just mature females that I raised from hatch (so I know they had never been with a male) look like that for about a week or two, then yellow out as the veins collapse. I take it as the females lack of experience but I don't scientifically know the explanation. Also so you know my reason I even bother candling dud eggs... is because its a way to tell how well the eggs are formed so I have an idea of the calcium reserves the females have, since gargs don't have visible cal sacks. I know from speaking to other garg breeders that it has happened to them as well. Give it some time and see. It would be cool if it was fertile, the female is very nice looking.

                        Though... if it is fertile I will have to agree with Brian and say that most like it has had contact with a male, at some point.
                        Thank You! -
                        I have a lot of geckos......... I stopped counting.
                        http://www.geckodome.com

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                        • #13
                          If leachies can, why not cresteds too???

                          Keep us updated Meg!!

                          Who had the gecko prior to 17 grams???
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                          Pickle - unsexed leachie

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                          • #14
                            I think that there is the slight possibility that it could happen. I do think it's pretty slim, but yours could be a case, who knows? I do question the idea of it being possible just simply because of the number of crested geckos in captivity and the lack of any documented cases of parthenogenesis. I know of a few reports of it happening in leachies and gargoyles, so why not cresteds too? However, given the difference in numbers in captivity, I think it must be a lot more rare than with cresteds, or not possible. Not really sure. I'm interested to see what happens with that egg.
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                            • #15
                              The breeder had her up until Noah purchased her, Holy Grail Geckos. I'm very interested to see how this plays out, and to see if she lays another clutch next month. I really thought she'd either have crashed if she was bred under 17g, or have been skinny and not looking well. And she's always been a robust, good eater. For both me an Noah. She's not displaying any "symptoms" associated with being bred young other than the eggs. So I was assuming that couldn't be the case.

                              But I guess we all shall see. Thanks for the input and interest everyone.
                              Meg
                              THE GECKO ALCHEMIST
                              on facebook

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