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CALCIUM AND VITAMIN D3 -What you need to know.

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  • #16
    This is a very useful post! Can this info be applied to leopard geckos too?
    0.2 leopard geckos Yoshi and Akari
    2.0 crested geckos Peanut and Hershey
    0.1 silver miniature poodle Midnight
    1.0 husband

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    • #17
      I was recently in contact with a member looking for help with her gecko. Over some time of conversation in chat and some emails w/ pictures being exchanged she took the animal to the vet.

      The symptoms that are showing that led to the vet treatment was...

      Lethargy/ lack of appetite
      Swollen joints
      what appeared to be a necrotic tongue
      Possible eye issues. (hard to say from the pictures)

      I learned from the conversation with that the person, who was trying to do her best, had been adding extra calcium to the CGD each feeding as well as dusting crickets. This happening each time over a period of 4-5 years. It turns out that the calcium had D3.

      The vet seems to think that it is a possible case of D3 toxicity. The symptoms seem to all lead back to that. It's causing renal failure because the gecko is storing an excess of minerals it can't metabolize. The tongue seems to be from a clot (possible mineral buildup clot) that could not pass in that area.

      I'm happy to report that the gecko seems to be doing much better. It may loose a portion of the tongue but hand feedings are working for now. Only time will say what will happen. I will give updates (possibly pictures) when I find out more.

      I felt this was a good place to post this information. As Matt has said, the CGD has D3 and there is enough of it in it unless you also feed feeder insects. You should only need to dust feeders with D3. Beside that there should be no reason to need to add extra calcium w/ D3 into the normal diet.
      Sarah & Jake
      LunarGecko.net
      Feel free to check out our Fauna reviews or follow us on FaceBook!
      You can also check out most of our animals on our iherp page.

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      • #18
        That sounds like Gout. Yeah the CGD does NOT need to be supplemented!!!

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        • #19
          i really think that all of it (lighting, calcium both with and without D3) does help when used properly. The reason i say this is because (and i know this might sound bad) the only reason i got a crestie in the first place was because i saw one at a pet store that was extremely sick(throwing up, crooked tail, skinny as all get out, i had done enough research on them to know that it wasn't good). They adamantly denied that there was anything wrong with it,"some of the little ones are just anorexic for a while and then they grow out of it" so i bought it and set up a vet appointment for two days later. The vet didn't know anything about them, so i went back and picked up another one who was healthy (judging by research done online) so that he could compare the two. Within those two days, she went into severe calcium crash, had a seizure and broke her back.

          Now, i supplemented her (with the vets advice) with both calcium with D3 and without, and with the lighting. With the mixture of the three, she recovered so quickly that the vet couldn't believe it. He told me he was almost certain, that we would have to have her euthanized within a few weeks. But she recovered great, regained full use of both her back legs and her tail, and is just as happy as can be! Now i know that she was an extreme case of MBD (i mean you couldn't even make out most of her bones in her x-rays, almost like they were non existent) but i do still add a little bit of extra calcium without D3 to the CGD every couple of months when i have a female who is breeding mainly because my vet told me that excess calcium that is not needed will not be stored without excess D3. I have been doing this for over 3 years, and haven't had a single case of MBD or FTS with the exception of my two rescues who came to me that way. I take all the girls in for a yearly check up, and everyone is doing great! (lol, i do it mainly because the vet wants to see izzey again! we all love our little hunchback!) But i do think that with the proper use, there is absolutely nothing to worry about, other than if you are using it correctly or not.
          3.6.12.4 crested geckos!

          http://www.freewebs.com/alliescresties/index.htm

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          • #20
            Can one add Flukers calcium with d3 powder to their water if so how much like a pinch..?
            3.1.0 Cresties 1.1.1 Cats 1.1.0 Kids

            Peace
            Jay

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            • #21
              Here are the calcium-phosphorous ratios in many common fruits

              Hey all, I thought it might be helpful to share the calcium-phosphorus ratios in many common fruits so that if you find yourself out of CGD and need some emergency fruits to feed for a while, you can feed them knowing the exact balance of calcium and phosphorous in the fruit. FYI an optimal ratio of calcium to phosphorous in any food item is 2 parts calcium (by weight) to 1 part phosphorous (by weight). I got these numbers from a nutritional study that my exotic reptile vet recommended I take a look at. The list is in descending order. Remember you can combine (in the right ratio) the fruits high in Phosphorous with fruits high in calcium to get a balanced mixture.

              Papaya----------4.5 :1
              Raspberries-------1.8 :1
              Blackberries-------1.5 :1
              Grapes------------1.4 :1
              Mango-------------1 : 1
              Pineapple-----------1 : 1
              Apple---------------1 : 1
              Pears----------------1 : 1.2
              Cherries--------------1 : 1.2
              Strawberries----------1 : 1.3
              Guavas----------------1 : 1.3
              Apricots----------------1 : 1.4
              Blueberries--------------1 : 1.6
              Summer Squash----------1 : 1.7
              Pumpkin------------------1 : 2.1
              Peaches------------------1 : 2.2
              Banana--------------------1 : 3.1
              1.0.0 - Eunectes murinus (Green Anaconda)
              0.1.0 - Chamydosaurus kingii (Frilled Dragon)
              ∞.∞.∞ - Rhacodactylus "all-of-'em-us"
              And many other species of Diplodactyline and Carphodactyline gecko

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              • #22
                Andrew - I believe that Papaya is high in Calcium but I hate to assume so I'm going to ask. The first listing is the calcium while the 2ed is the Phosphorous, correct? If that is the case... this list would explain why animals feed on a diet of banana & peach baby food (or fresh) tend to get MBD faster than people who feed a mixed variety.
                Last edited by Lunar Gecko; 07-09-2010, 05:29 PM.
                Sarah & Jake
                LunarGecko.net
                Feel free to check out our Fauna reviews or follow us on FaceBook!
                You can also check out most of our animals on our iherp page.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Lunar Gecko View Post
                  Andrew - I believe that Papaya is high in Calcium but I hate to assume so I'm going to ask. The first listing is the calcium while the 2ed is the Phosphorous, correct? If that is this list would explain why animals feed on a diet of banana & peach baby food (or fresh) tend to get MBD faster than people who feed a mixed variety.
                  Yep its calcium : phosphorous. I mentioned calcium before phosphorous every time I talked about the ratio, but I never said it outright I suppose, so thanks
                  1.0.0 - Eunectes murinus (Green Anaconda)
                  0.1.0 - Chamydosaurus kingii (Frilled Dragon)
                  ∞.∞.∞ - Rhacodactylus "all-of-'em-us"
                  And many other species of Diplodactyline and Carphodactyline gecko

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Lunar Gecko View Post
                    If that is this list would explain why animals feed on a diet of banana & peach baby food (or fresh) tend to get MBD faster than people who feed a mixed variety.
                    I was thinking the same thing in the other post on fruit! Those seem to be the most popular baby foods fed.
                    Specializing in Crested Geckos
                    Working with Uromastyx | Uroplatus | PI Chahoua
                    Also keeping: Australian Shepherds (Chester & Sadie)
                    Moon Valley Reptiles | MVR @iherp | Facebook

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                    • #25
                      Informational Warning

                      Originally posted by Matthew Parks View Post
                      I have never heard of a substantiated case of vitamin d3 overdose in any reptile (and by substantiated I mean a vet conducted blood tests, not someone blaming a mysterious death on d3)...
                      You may want to amend that statement after you read my post lol

                      The following is an informational warning on calcium products which include D3.

                      Whatever you do DO NOT USE "REPCAL Calcium with Vitamin D3 (Phosphorous Free) Ultrafine powder". This is an extremely dangerous product, I have a photocopy of a letter that the FDA sent to my Vet warning him about the potential dangers of a product that had the exact same concentrations of D3 and calcium as the RepCal product I listed above. When used as directed (aka a 0.330 gram 5 week old cricket gets dusted with the RepCal supplement, and an average of 0.045g of supplement gets added in the process of dusting), the cricket's vitamin D3 content becomes 55 times the safe limit of Vit D3!!! The recommended safe limit of Vit D3 is 5,000 IU/kg of food (dry weight). My vet has done plenty of lizard, gecko, and chameleon Necropsies in which it was determined the cause of death was massive over-calcification of the soft tissues, so this isn't "just talk". My vet's website (Dr. Mark Burgess) with all his info available = http://www.swanimalhospital.net/

                      Here are pictures of the letter from the FDA, the product name has been blacked out for liability reasons, but you can go look at the REPCAL label and see that the nutritional content of the supplement discussed in the letter matches that of the REPCAL product.




                      Anyone with a scale and a calculator can do their own study of any supplement, given that the label for the product is honest about the nutritional content (which is not always the case).
                      1.0.0 - Eunectes murinus (Green Anaconda)
                      0.1.0 - Chamydosaurus kingii (Frilled Dragon)
                      ∞.∞.∞ - Rhacodactylus "all-of-'em-us"
                      And many other species of Diplodactyline and Carphodactyline gecko

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                      • #26
                        I will agree with you that the Rep Cal does have wayyy too much d3 in it. I originally posted this in response to all of the emails I get saying "whats wrong with my gecko". I get a ton of them everyday. The main problem is MBD from improper diet and/or improper supplementation. Many of the people feed CGD but supplement with undusted crickets or crickets dusted with calcium and no d3. Others feed baby food unsupplemented or improperly supplemented.

                        Stay away from Rep-Cal, but if you feed insects frequently and don't supplement with calcium and d3 you will eventually run into a problem. People need to realize that d3 is necessary and shouldn't be demonized. In the case of rep-cal, too much of a good thing can be bad.

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                        • #27
                          I know some people mix the repti cals together for this very reason. With D3 & no D3 50/50.
                          Sarah & Jake
                          LunarGecko.net
                          Feel free to check out our Fauna reviews or follow us on FaceBook!
                          You can also check out most of our animals on our iherp page.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Matthew Parks View Post
                            I will agree with you that the Rep Cal does have wayyy too much d3 in it. I originally posted this in response to all of the emails I get saying "whats wrong with my gecko". I get a ton of them everyday. The main problem is MBD from improper diet and/or improper supplementation. Many of the people feed CGD but supplement with undusted crickets or crickets dusted with calcium and no d3. Others feed baby food unsupplemented or improperly supplemented.

                            Stay away from Rep-Cal, but if you feed insects frequently and don't supplement with calcium and d3 you will eventually run into a problem. People need to realize that d3 is necessary and shouldn't be demonized. In the case of rep-cal, too much of a good thing can be bad.
                            Oh I completely agree, I wasn't at all trying to undermine your OP, but rather add to it in a constructive way. I agree that the number 1 priority as far as calcium and D3 levels are concerned is supplementing in the first place, especially with crested geckos which eat CGD mostly, an underdose of Calcium and D3 with insect feedings would do more harm than an overdose, especially in growing animals or breeding females.
                            1.0.0 - Eunectes murinus (Green Anaconda)
                            0.1.0 - Chamydosaurus kingii (Frilled Dragon)
                            ∞.∞.∞ - Rhacodactylus "all-of-'em-us"
                            And many other species of Diplodactyline and Carphodactyline gecko

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Lunar Gecko View Post
                              I know some people mix the repti cals together for this very reason. With D3 & no D3 50/50.
                              That's better than the D3 product by itself, but mixing half and half would still yield a dose of D3 on crickets that was 27.5 times what the safe limit of D3 is in a food source (safe limit = 5,000 IU/kg Dry Food).
                              1.0.0 - Eunectes murinus (Green Anaconda)
                              0.1.0 - Chamydosaurus kingii (Frilled Dragon)
                              ∞.∞.∞ - Rhacodactylus "all-of-'em-us"
                              And many other species of Diplodactyline and Carphodactyline gecko

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                (safe limit = 5,000 IU/kg Dry Food).
                                Is this a standard? How was it set?

                                Also, could you explain what the IU/kg means. It probably doesn't mean much to most people.
                                Kyle J. Salzmann
                                Check out Gekkonidazed Geckos on Facebook!
                                www.gekkonidazed.com
                                New to shipping reptiles? Use ShipYourReptiles.com and save! Enter code Dazed40 at checkout and get 40% off your 1st shipment!

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