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OPEN DISCUSSION #16 the need to breed

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  • OPEN DISCUSSION #16 the need to breed

    This is an open discussion about stopping the madness. I have seen to many inquiries about how to grow animals faster to get them to breed ASAP... or putting young animals together and wondering why there are no eggs yet... the list goes on...
    Here is my thought on the rush to breed trend... STOP it! If you have to ask about doing something like this, odds are, you are I'll equipped to do it responsibly and have no good reason to do it in the first place. I will not single anyone out on this issue. I would like to openly discuss the effect this has on our animals and hobby. Please refrain from targeting anyone and share your opinions on this subject.

  • #2
    Great way of puting the question, subject an answer all in one. I think alot of people do it because they rather ask instead of learning. An think they will make a quick buck. Then they run into adult animal health problems an wonder why. Plus they think nothing will happen to there animal.
    Crested geckos 4:5:15
    Chewie. 0:1:1

    http://www.facebook.com/cjgeckos

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    • #3
      It may be money on some occasions... which won't work out for the most part. I see a lot of selfishness in it all. It is the "I want it.now" mentality. There is no real empathy for the animals in many cases. It harms the reptile community as a whole. Let's face it.... we all get lumped into one big group.

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      • #4
        Agreed i didn't think of "I want it now deal." Good way of putting it. An now you said that i see that here . The ones that get me are the ones the ask for advice an then they get it an don't like it or think theres is better. I feel some shouldn't breed at all.
        Crested geckos 4:5:15
        Chewie. 0:1:1

        http://www.facebook.com/cjgeckos

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        • #5
          It is an overall mentality issue and not confined to our hobby. Some have the capacity or desire to learn and some have selfish desires that overcome everything.

          Now what are the pitfalls to rushing to breed? Anyone care to elaborate?

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          • #6
            this is definitely the wrong species if you are in a rush to breed! They take a while to mature, the eggs then incubate for a long time. Some of the rush is just the "now" generation we seem to live in with everyone having instant access to information on cell phones and wanting everything NOW. One of my daughters just about has a fit if you don't immediately respond to her texts or phone calls...nevermind you might be busy with work or in a meeting and can't talk at the moment. So that mindset can easily transfer to many areas in life.

            Even when people aren't attempting to breed we see instances of terrible husbandry practices affecting the health of their cresties, or good folks trying to help out that have to learn a lot. So the obvious pitfall is the health of the animals is affected in addition to potentially casting a bad image on all reptile keepers...or guilt by association.

            It's important to spend enough time keeping the animals and learning about them before taking the next step in breeding them so you are equipped to recognize if they are under stress or having health issues before breeding them. And even when you think you have read and studied and asked good questions, you still come across unexpected issues sometimes.

            This board is a great source of information and very helpful to those who are willing to use the info. But we can't force anyone to do what we think is right, and many have differing opinions on how to handle various aspects of crestie care from enclosure size, to diet, to feeding bugs, to substrate, to tubs versus terrariums...the list is quite long. So I'm quite certain that while I think I'm doing a good job caring for my animals, I have no doubt a number of others out there that would certainly find issue with some aspect of what i'm doing because they do it differently...and maybe it is a better way in some instances.

            I like the fact that a lot of posters on here are able to offer constructive criticism without making a new member uncomfortable or scaring them off because the more you learn here, the more we can positively affect the care of this species we love. It's sometimes hard to see things from other's perspective, and there are a lot of people that jump into things without doing a ton of studying first. that part is easy to forget when a large number of members here are very passionate about the species and possibly handled things differently when they decided to keep them. worse yet are the stories we all hear about poor husbandry at the pet stores selling cresties and bad advice given there as well.

            the bottom line is all of these issues can negatively impact the health of our animals and the overall perspective of the keeping of them...that's the biggest pitfall to me in any of the issues poor practices can create. There are so many out there that don't know any better and don't find away to access avenues like this board, that we just need to be mindful in our interactions with them so as to be constructive when we come across someone we could positively influence. It's sometimes hard to control emotions, but a poor response can quickly turn off the person we are trying to help.

            Not sure I ever really got on point with the subject of this thread!
            3.4.13 crested geckos!!

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            • #7
              Most people when they first get into cresties or reptiles in general are amazed by them and want to jump right in to breeding. They read a sheet on breeding and think its super easy. A year later they no longer have the same interest in their geckos yet their stuck with 10+ geckos and lack the desire to care for them. I think its the initial awe of reptiles that make people jump in without thinking about the long term.

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              • #8
                I don't want to breed, but I'd be interested in hatching an egg, just to get that experience. I don't want to hurt or exhaust my gecko, nor do I want to give up more space, time and money.

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                • #9
                  I think people are much more prone to jumping to breeding this species as well because A)They see geckos selling for a lot of money and figure that they can do the same. 2)Cresties in general are easy to breed and incubate eggs compared to other animals due to the lack of needing a real incubator.

                  It ruins the hobby by flooding the market with lower quality geckos and geckos with health issues. In my opinion if you want to breed, buy the best male and best female you can afford that are the morph you want to produce. This is how I started when I bred, I bought the best Super Dal male and female I could afford, which cost me about $500 and started there and I still didn't produce what I was hoping to! It's such a crap shoot. And if you have no intentions of doing it right and doing the research necessary, and you have to ask questions that are easily found by using the search function and google, then you have no business breeding. I had geckos for over a year, maybe longer before I first attempted breeding. I only ever produced two babies and then did not breed again.

                  For the people who think they are going to get rich doing it, you probably won't. Most good breeders of any animal, be it cat, dog, etc, do not make money and if they do, it takes a long time to do so, generally the time it takes to build a reputation. Even if you produce great looking geckos, you can't command the same price as breeders with a reputation, well you can but you probably won't get it.

                  I got out of crested geckos when I had to move two years ago. I'm going to be purchasing one gecko as a pet over the next year but even as just a pet I am being picky about the quality of the gecko and as always, careful about who I buy from!
                  "I believe that education is all about being excited about something. Seeing passion and enthusiasm helps push an educational message."-Steve Irwin​

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                  • #10
                    I adore the idea of discussing this topic!
                    Although everyone may have the option of breeding, I do not believe everyone should exercise this option. It needs to be realized that there are certain requirements that should be understood and employed. I would believe these requirements to be obvious but sometimes they seem to go unthought of.
                    Keep the geckos as pets for a while. Gain personal experience and knowledge as a keeper. Give yourself time to consider whether or not your fascination for the species will last or if it will dissipate within a couple of years.
                    YOU CAN NEVER DO TOO MUCH RESEARCH! You should spend a huge chunk of time simply reading as much extensive knowledge about Crested health, breeding and incubation as you can possibly find. These are living creatures we are talking about, after all.
                    Save up for a nice starting pair instead of breeding a cheaper average-looking pair. Do your part to contribute outstanding examples of the species.
                    But, for the love of all things good, make sure your breeding stock is healthy above all else. Since I'm mentioning health, I feel I must say this next bit. I understand some people care for unhealthy geckos obtained from someone else in an attempt to save the animal's life (which is commendable to me) but if you find yourself with multiple geckos suffering from health ailments acquired while under your care, you should highly reconsider breeding. Being a hardy animal of simplistic care, they aren't hard to keep healthy. If you have recurring issues keeping your geckos healthy, you may want to reconsider even keeping in my opinion, at least.
                    Have all necessary supplies before attempting to breed. While researching, make a checklist of everything you'll need and purchase it all in advance.
                    Before doing any of that though, ask yourself, "Why do I want to breed Crested Geckos?"
                    Is it because you love the species, "just to do it" because they are easy to breed or is it because you seen a Crested sell for a pretty penny and thought it would be a good way to earn money? You should breed because you have a deep admiration, appreciation and fascination for Crested Geckos, never because you want to make a buck or "just to do it".

                    All of this may have already been said. I have been periodically adding to this comment when I have a moment to type and haven't read the other comments yet. Either way, this is how I personally feel about the matter.

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                    • #11
                      I see a lot of people "accidentally" breeding because they house a male and female pair and are seemingly shocked that they started having babies. I can understand if they bought a mis-sexed pair or thought they had a pair that couldn't breed because the previous seller said so or kept them in conditions which resulted in no hatchlings. But to knowingly buy a male and female... maybe they think they need special conditions to breed or that they are sterile or are neutered at the pet shop.

                      You see this with a lot of animals: fish like guppies, birds like finches, etc. Luckily a lot of pet stores stopped carrying both males and females making less likely that a pair will breed by mistake.

                      But for the most part, people go in with the intent to breed to make money or to create something new. I understand the desire to get some return on an investment but most people do not do near enough research. I didn't do enough research prior to breeding and made some mistakes. Everyone will, but it's best to go in and get explanations and ask a lot of questions before getting two geckos and putting them together.
                      Specializing in Crested Geckos
                      Working with Uromastyx | Uroplatus | PI Chahoua
                      Also keeping: Australian Shepherds (Chester & Sadie)
                      Moon Valley Reptiles | MVR @iherp | Facebook

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                      • #12
                        Here's another take on crestie breeding (not mine): there's such a small gene pool of cresties outside New Caledonia and there's so much breeding going on that subsequent generations are too closely related (even if the breeders were obtained from different sources) and there is an increasing percentage of visible and non-visible birth defects. In reading this argument, I began to wonder how big the gene pool on an island is anyway and whether the situation is any different in "nature" than in captivity. Consequently, Gecko Time (www.geckotime.com) will be running an article about this topic on August 25.

                        Aliza

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                        • #13
                          Just seen your comment about the pitfalls of rushing to breed, Big Tom.
                          I think the most disastrous pitfall is endangering the health of the animal. I don't just mean the health of the breeding geckos but the health of their offspring too. You cannot rush when it comes to producing healthy animals.
                          If the hatchlings produced have health impairments and are eventually bred too, it just further destroys the gene pool. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it becomes a vicious cycle of deepening health deterioration throughout time if people continue rushing into breeding without concern for the consequences and later outcome.
                          Because it seems like there are more people willing to rush into breeding for the wrong reasons than people willing to wait to breed for the right reasons, I think the market will become saturated with unhealthy animals if rushing to breed doesn't stop. This hardy and healthy animal would eventually become known for having poor health thanks to irresponsible breeders.
                          Then there's the flooded market of average-looking animals. I know not everyone wants a high quality gem when looking for a pet but that doesn't mean you should purposely breed average-looking animals. You should always strive to contribute beautiful and healthy animals of exemplary quality.
                          I hope all of that makes sense the way I phrased it.

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                          • #14
                            I do not agree to the above, their should be 2 motivations to breed: the first is to experience the happening of seeing your own bred reptile hatch and grow up. And the other one is to look and try to breed something new some new treats forms or colour. For the first motivation it doesnt matter whether their 'normals' or not. There are always new owners who would like a PET. And for the 2nd you would like some abnormality in colour or form appearing on the animal, so you either have to be lucky to find one or try to crossbreed genes and wait untill you find a mutated treat. If we only keep inbreeding pinners with pinners and Halloweens with Halloweens than we weaken them up. Because we only select for colour gene and pay less attention to the PETS health! People just breeding normals for the experience are not to blame at all!

                            Verstuurd vanaf mijn Z500 met Tapatalk

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                            • #15
                              I just had this conversation with my husband the other day. I wanted to purchase another gecko( would be my first and only chewie) and he stated that I hadn't even made any money of the cresteds so why would I buy something else. I had to calm myself for a minuet to respond. "My intent is never to make money. This is a hobby, nothing more to me. I love cresteds and even though I have several high end geckos from reputable breeders doesn't mean I plan to breed them all and try to turn a profit. My decision to put one pair together this season was not to make money. Before the they were paired I did a lot of research on local reptile store and found a semi local place that not only is very knowledgeable about the species and take great care of the animals in their care but I have personally witnessed them refusing a sale to a customer who just wasn't getting the advise they were giving. I spoke with them and worked out an arrangement for" if" I got babies then they would trade me supplies, not money. Like stated above this is a hobby but If you want to do the best for the little sticky lives in your care then I can be an expensive hobby." On a side note, I am extremely excited to see what this pair produces. She is a dark purple and orange flame and he is a pale moca extreme harley........ To the breeders and more experienced breeders on this thread....please feel free to coment with any advise, guestions, or if you feel I am doing wrong by the hobby for that would never be my intent.

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