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OPEN DISCUSSION #1 quality of life

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  • #31
    im not sure if our *evolutionary chain* is all that much different to be honest... i mean in biology when i was at school (or science or whatever it was) we were taught that mammals *almost deffinenately... if not 100% evolved from a reptilian species...* so, because my literal mind see that text and remembers that class, could it not be possible that because of OUR evolution, we can expect geckos and similar reptiles to evolve along a similar chain? Therefore, does that not mean that all reptiles (because of us as the *final end of our known evolution chain have come from that stage*) also have the same capacity of love, socialism etc that we do?
    If all you want from life is *Roses* and life gives you Roses... Then how are you going to smell anything else?

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    • #32
      In the context of how it deals with their quality of life... sure. I will post it in another open discussion thread if you want to dig deeper into it.

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      • #33
        no need to go to hassle just for me :P unless you think it would help others also?

        yes im being sarcastic... i suppose its an art form which i fail at (nice sarcastic by the way :P), but as i say, if you think it will help new people like me, and other new guys, then go for it... i KNOW they are not dogs or cats, its just my personal belefe that they have the same capacity for love, companionship/etc as any other animal (as MOther of Turtles said) i just think they show it more than anyone dares to look... think how much this would change the reptilian comunity if they had to go backwards a few years and re-invent all the current reaserch on social hierarchies... and even (dare i say it) capacity for *love*
        If all you want from life is *Roses* and life gives you Roses... Then how are you going to smell anything else?

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        • #34
          I think it may be a comfort based on what they learn. When your gecko or lizard calms down with you around, it may be that it has learned that it is safe when you are there and finds comfort in your presence. If you have never mishandled it, then you may be the equivalent of safety or the feeling of comfort. Plus you provide food. You may be thought of as the provider in its eyes. Like the comfort we find with our parents or loved ones. I think this is why the term love and feelings come into play.
          I will start a food related discussion in this series tomorrow. It was one of many topics that I also had in mind and is worth discussing.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Big Tom View Post
            I think it may be a comfort based on what they learn. When your gecko or lizard calms down with you around, it may be that it has learned that it is safe when you are there and finds comfort in your presence. If you have never mishandled it, then you may be the equivalent of safety or the feeling of comfort. Plus you provide food. You may be thought of as the provider in its eyes. Like the comfort we find with our parents or loved ones. I think this is why the term love and feelings come into play.
            I will start a food related discussion in this series tomorrow. It was one of many topics that I also had in mind and is worth discussing.
            I agree with this statement. I believe our reptiles 'calm' or 'tame' over time as they see us as part of their every day routine. So, in that regard, I see that as learned behavior and not necessarily an emotional attachment.

            This subject has been discussed on the Chameleon Forum that I belong to, also. It is interesting to see some of the contrasting opinions between gecko keepers on this site and chameleon keepers on the other site. I have found, overwhelmingly, that chameleon keepers seem to believe their animals lack any emotional capacity. I am leaning into that category, myself. Neither of my two chameleons seems interested in me, at all. Other than, of course, whenever I reach in for cleaning or feeding. Then, they usually tend to either run away or, in the case of my male Panther, show their aggressive stance.

            On the other hand, geckos do seem to show more interest in interaction. So, in that respect, geckos are definitely much more social. Of course, this is all based on my personal observations.

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            • #36
              it the same as the Chams in the reptile house i am getting my gecko... they just are not interested in anyone but themselves lol, i wonder if it is the species?
              If all you want from life is *Roses* and life gives you Roses... Then how are you going to smell anything else?

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              • #37
                I do not think geckos love or have complex emotions. They probably learn to associate us with good things, such as food, warmth, and that we are not a threat which leads them to be tame. I think they have the capacity to categorize and learn what is good and bad. They learn to associate us in the good category as every time our hand shows up food appears and that categorizes us as good to them. While lets say you first start handling your gecko and end up dropping it or grabbing it then it will categorize you as bad and continue skittish behavior and takes time to move to the good category.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Graham Barnfield View Post
                  no need to go to hassle just for me :P unless you think it would help others also?

                  yes im being sarcastic... i suppose its an art form which i fail at (nice sarcastic by the way :P), but as i say, if you think it will help new people like me, and other new guys, then go for it... i KNOW they are not dogs or cats, its just my personal belefe that they have the same capacity for love, companionship/etc as any other animal (as MOther of Turtles said) i just think they show it more than anyone dares to look... think how much this would change the reptilian comunity if they had to go backwards a few years and re-invent all the current reaserch on social hierarchies... and even (dare i say it) capacity for *love*
                  I didn't go so far as to say that I think they love us. I was just trying to convey the idea that we don't really know if or how geckos experience things, and that I don't think they're completely devoid of feelings. It seems unlikely to me that their tiny, simpler brains could reach the layers of complexity of emotion that we have, but it doesn't mean they couldn't have simpler versions of feelings than we have. And I don't believe I know everything. I could be wrong. I know people who don't believe non-human animals are capable of even feeling pain or fear. Some folks really do see them as mindless. I don't agree with those folks. But it really comes down to personal belief. We don't 100% understand how our own brains or emotions work, so we can only make educated guesses based on whatever level of education we have.


                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                  • #39
                    This has been my first season breeding crested geckos. Out of my first 5 clutches, the latest hatchling was born last week and is a little different. He/she was born a few hours after the first egg hatched. I first saw him coming out of his egg with half of his body still in it. I've been dying to see this since every time I check to see if the eggs have hatched, the hatchlings are usually out of their eggs and exploring the incubator. This time I watched the hatchling work his way out. To my surprise, the hatchling was not flighty nor jumpy as I have found out they usually are. He sat on my hand and started licking my finger. He has not changed his way of being since then and I have to say he is probably the nicest gecko I have. He seems to be as healthy as the rest of my hatchlings and is eating and pooping regularly. Maybe some cresties tolerate humans more than others? He lives with his clutch mate and I always see the two together. This crested gecko, without being influenced by anything seems to tolerate my presence so maybe it could just depend on the individual similarly to humans.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by odduc748 View Post
                      I agree with this statement. I believe our reptiles 'calm' or 'tame' over time as they see us as part of their every day routine. So, in that regard, I see that as learned behavior and not necessarily an emotional attachment.

                      This subject has been discussed on the Chameleon Forum that I belong to, also. It is interesting to see some of the contrasting opinions between gecko keepers on this site and chameleon keepers on the other site. I have found, overwhelmingly, that chameleon keepers seem to believe their animals lack any emotional capacity. I am leaning into that category, myself. Neither of my two chameleons seems interested in me, at all. Other than, of course, whenever I reach in for cleaning or feeding. Then, they usually tend to either run away or, in the case of my male Panther, show their aggressive stance.

                      On the other hand, geckos do seem to show more interest in interaction. So, in that respect, geckos are definitely much more social. Of course, this is all based on my personal observations.
                      soryy, i must have miss-understood... and although i agree animals may not have the 8sme capacity* of love as humans, i still beleive they feel it and try to show it
                      If all you want from life is *Roses* and life gives you Roses... Then how are you going to smell anything else?

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                      • #41
                        Guys can u give me some exemples of combination between substrats?? i have plantation soil i can mix it with JBL TERRA BASIS(earth) ???
                        or plantation soil + Exo Terra Forest Bark ?? or plantation soil + exo terra jungle earth+ZooMed Terrarium Moss something like that...i need a good combination you can also add some photos of you`re terrarium substrat if there`s time :P thx alot

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