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High White vs. White Collar vs. White Shoulders vs. "Wings" vs. ...not

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  • High White vs. White Collar vs. White Shoulders vs. "Wings" vs. ...not

    So far this season I have seen a few trade ads going around where people claim that a gecko is "starting to get it's white collar" or post photos with a few flashes of white and then call it a "possible white collar". This is only my experience but I have never seen a hatchling gain more white from the amount it had at hatch, especially not enough to become high white or a white collar if it was born with nothing. In fact, I think it's far more common to see the amount of white diminish over time.

    That said, I think there is a large margin for disagreement because of opinions on this matter, which might explain some of the confusion. I have had several conversations with other people on this topic, some being the "experts" and notable breeders of high white animals, and think there are a few common characteristics that can be grouped together.

    The below photos are of my animals (as per forum rules) and I know that many of you have more representative animals, so feel free to post 'em up and I will replace the pics

    "High White" - an animal that has a high amount of white markings, likely covering the base of it's tail and neck and other portions of the body, sometimes including hips and sides. A high white can also be a white collar if the white stretches from one side of the neck to the other in a solid, consecutive band with no breaks.

    Steve Cemelli's animals come to mind here.









    "White Collar" - an animal that has a solid band of white going from one side of it's neck to the other with no breaks or inconsistencies.



    "White Shoulders" - an animal that has splotches of white around the neck and shoulders, likely in fragmented sections or separate areas that are not consistently white across the entire neck and shoulders.











    "Wings" - the wing-shaped pattern that comes off the neck and is usually minty green, light green, gray, or even light tan but not white.





    "...not white/normal" - very minimal amounts of white or none at all:









    I think it would be great to make this post a reference point for those who may not know the differences or correct terms, so feel free to debate and post up your pictures and I will add them to the original post
    Charming Chewies: Specializing in Grand Terre and Pine Isle locales of chahoua.

  • #2
    I do agree that because "white collar" is the hot look of the day that the term is being thrown around rather loosely and that there is indeed some color confusion going around. I would also have to agree that there has never been an example that I have seen where white has "developed" it is either there at hatch or isn't. I have certainly seen it diminish or turn from white to what I think of as pale green wings which I do think are different than a white collar.
    Thank you Michael for addressing this topic while it may tweak some noses I think it's important to establish some truth in naming with these guys as there is with any of the other rhacs. For animals that are true examples of "high color" ie reds or whites I believe the price should be higher for these examples but I will not start shelling out more of my money for animals with a little white or a little red and let someone convince me that they are high anything. I would hate to see chewies start going the way of "high-end cresteds".
    Specializing in R. Chahoua

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    • #3
      Agreed, Mike if you saw that ad, then you saw my post in it. There is no such thing as a "High white" chahoua that has NO white when it is little. They don't just grow the white overnight, and anyone with chewies knows that. But newcomers don't.

      I think its so dishonest to hawk animals as something that they are not. High white for an animal with no white, or "white collared" for an animal that only has nice shoulders.

      I myself don't own anything with a collar, and you won't catch me callin em that either lol.

      My three little ones only have shoulders at best:
      Bitte, at birth, a photo her white is more visible

      now, at 3.5g


      When I got him at 4g

      Zuko, now at 6.5g


      And then Sokka, at 5g. She has the most white out of all my kids, my best shoulders.

      and getting bigger at 7.5g



      Sometimes Ohne, my 40g girl will fire with these fuzzy looking "gray" patches. They can be white one day, and then gone the next. But they aren't true white patches. Juvie animals that still possess their muddier colors seem to come up with a better range of hues like that.

      And for contrast, here's Roku, my red and green boy. Not a speck of white on him


      Great idea for a post Mike! Now we need to get some people with big chewies to post pictures lol. I looked over my post and laughed, 3.5g, 4g lol--
      Meg
      THE GECKO ALCHEMIST
      on facebook

      Comment


      • #4
        I myself have had a habit of using white collar and white shoulder interchangeably when referring to Chewies with any white on their neck and shoulders. Usually ill use either term and then describe how thick the pattern is and how bright (or dull) it is. One of my juvenile girls has what i've referred to sometimes as a "pseudo white shoulder/collar". It is a fairly dull pair of "wings" that i think will probably fade with age. Its true i agree that if you cant see white shoulders at hatching it really doesn't develop with age from what i have seen.
        Last edited by AndrewLiu; 11-14-2010, 04:43 PM. Reason: formatting issues
        2.3.10 R.ciliatus
        2.2.0 R.auriculatus
        4.4.1 R.sarasinorum
        8.10.3 R.chahoua (PI)
        1.2.0 R.chahoua (GT)

        www.JollyGreenGecko.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Am I the only one who has no interest in white collar / shoulders? I think it's an overrated trait that has an enormous appeal for something as trivial as a blotch that's isolated just as the top torso, but when people bring it up like they're describing finding a gold nugget at the bottom of a dirty barrel people just assume it's something to be valued because they hear it as something people need to have for a top grade A animal. I would rather people focus breeding chahouas with a molted white pattern all over or pastel pinks/oranges/yellows than focus on breeding that white strip over their shoulder area. For me it's not worth paying extra for that tiny trait. If people didn't make such a big deal about it, I don't know if it would be as popular because it's overhyped.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by cork_screw View Post
            Am I the only one who has no interest in white collar / shoulders? I think it's an overrated trait that has an enormous appeal for something as trivial as a blotch that's isolated just as the top torso, but when people bring it up like they're describing finding a gold nugget at the bottom of a dirty barrel people just assume it's something to be valued because they hear it as something people need to have for a top grade A animal. I would rather people focus breeding chahouas with a molted white pattern all over or pastel pinks/oranges/yellows than focus on breeding that white strip over their shoulder area. For me it's not worth paying extra for that tiny trait. If people didn't make such a big deal about it, I don't know if it would be as popular because it's overhyped.
            There are certainly some gorgeous animals lacking the "white" trait in any form, and i don't think its an absolute must have trait for visual quality. However i do find that the white trait tends to produce a visual contrast that is very appealing. It has not been well documented exactly how the white trait develops in adulthood but i have seen adult animals in which the white trait presents as a very attractive light green color. In a few photographs, i have seen animals with a particularly thick and vibrant white trait that seems to maintain the look into adulthood.

            http://www.pangeareptile.com/forums/...ad.php?t=33615

            Here is SBR's thread showing chahoua with varying levels of white. Some of the pics are down, but i believe you can still see examples of adults with "white shoulders/wings" that have turned that light green color in adulthood as well as what appears to be adult animals who maintain a vibrant and thick white trait on the shoulders, tail-base, and more. I personally enjoy the latter look greatly and would place more value on animals of that "high-white" appearance. As with many things rarity factors in the value as well. In my experience i have seen and known of only a few specimens that present with such a strong trait that they remain a thick and bright white pattern well into adulthood.

            Originally posted by cork_screw View Post
            I would rather people focus breeding chahouas with a molted white pattern all over
            It seems that those who produce animals with a white pattern all over are actually focused on pairing parents who possess strong white shoulder/tail-base traits. I have only made loose inquiries on the subject, but i'm fairly certain that the few examples of chahoua with a dense white back pattern are the product of parents with white shoulder/tail base traits.
            2.3.10 R.ciliatus
            2.2.0 R.auriculatus
            4.4.1 R.sarasinorum
            8.10.3 R.chahoua (PI)
            1.2.0 R.chahoua (GT)

            www.JollyGreenGecko.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Here are some of my own gang. I have sometimes confused people when i say white collar chewies as opposed to shoulders, but its a habit that somehow transferred from talking about WC sarasinorum. You can see how in Sebastian and somewhat in Sonic that the white trait sometimes turns green. Best i can tell the only way it stays bright white is if it is very strong and thick when younger.

              Sputnik:


              Sonic:


              Sebastian:


              Beatrice:
              2.3.10 R.ciliatus
              2.2.0 R.auriculatus
              4.4.1 R.sarasinorum
              8.10.3 R.chahoua (PI)
              1.2.0 R.chahoua (GT)

              www.JollyGreenGecko.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Sadly the whole "high end" value difference is going to happen regardless of names. They're worth what people will pay for them i guess :/ I think it looks like bird poop most of the time (which may actually be it's natural function), but can see where some people might prefer the contrast. I'm a red lover myself
                As far as the whites in my colony go I only have individuals that the white changes. I have had 2 baby mainlands (that I have photos of at least and kept to adulthood) that had no white as young, then that area lightened up and became white and slowly spread out, and as adults it changes between green and white. Most of my animals have lighter patches in that same area, sometimes it's white, sometimes it's lime green.
                In my experience chahoua change colors through their life, but pattern always remains the same. If "true" white blotch animals keep their white for life it must be different than normal coloration and acts more like a pattern.
                Rhachic
                www.goodlifeherps.weebly.com
                specializing in rhacodactylus

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Rhachic View Post
                  As far as the whites in my colony go I only have individuals that the white changes... as adults it changes between green and white. Most of my animals have lighter patches in that same area, sometimes it's white, sometimes it's lime green.
                  I do have one adult animal that fires up so dark that it completely covers any trace of her "white shoulder" trait. I am not sure if its that sort of change that you have seen in those two hatchlings now turned adults. I purchased the girl, shown here in the pics, at an almost RTB size so unfortunately i wasn't able to watch her grow up. While firing up or down does change the visibility of the trait, it really seems to me that it had to have been there in the first place and does not get better with age. I base this mostly on the anecdotal evidence i have seen of progressive pictures of a given animal. The typical trend i see over and over is that white shoulder trait tends to fade and become that "lime green" color. I would be fascinated to see an example otherwise where the white trait develops at a significant time after hatching.



                  2.3.10 R.ciliatus
                  2.2.0 R.auriculatus
                  4.4.1 R.sarasinorum
                  8.10.3 R.chahoua (PI)
                  1.2.0 R.chahoua (GT)

                  www.JollyGreenGecko.com

                  Comment

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