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Czech Republic imports PI babies

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  • Rufio
    replied
    Originally posted by MaddoxDobes View Post
    Laura,
    Your two babies are gorgeous. No matter if they are Mainland, PI or hillbilly Chewies they are adorable lil bundles
    I second that!!! very interesting conversation though.

    Leave a comment:


  • MaddoxDobes
    replied
    Laura,
    Your two babies are gorgeous. No matter if they are Mainland, PI or hillbilly Chewies they are adorable lil bundles

    Leave a comment:


  • cizin
    replied
    Originally posted by jaspersail View Post
    As I understand it, Derek, Troeger's chahoua were in tanks marked "Pine Island" but are almost certainly Grande Terre animals (per Steve Cemelli).
    For those that do not know, Steve is one of my closest friends, and we vend 13 shows a year together. I would never, ever bring Steve's knowledge of Rhacodactylus into question, but I fear the slippery slope of 'looks like.' Either you trust the source, or you do not. I trust my sources, and when I do not have 100% confidence in what they say, I mark the geckos are unknown. We as hobbyists (as the geneticists don't care one bit) must decide if we bread of line, or for type. Once 'looks like' comes in to play, we accept breeding for type. Do I believe that every chahoua labels are pine or mainland is either pine or mainland? Absolutely not. When these animals were first collected, they didn't even label them as to where they came from. Chahoua were chahoua, leachies were leachies, and that was as far as it went. Troeger called his animals Pine Islands, and only after he died did we start getting them and calling them mainlands. I have not been around long enough to know what the opinions of Mr. Troeger were previous to his death, so I am not willing to question him or his integrity. Maybe someone more old school than shed light onto that?

    Either way, I got the chahoua from Jon Boone, whom I trust, and he bought them from someone he trusted. With no discernible difference other than some traits in the appearance, faith is all we have.

    Leave a comment:


  • Panther
    replied
    Those look fantastic!

    Just remember, everything good comes from the Czech Republic, namely, good Pilsner beers!

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  • jaspersail
    replied
    Originally posted by DDReptiles View Post
    As me and Nick discussed on the phone, maybe these animals are just related to Troeger stock (as Troeger animals are similar looking) or maybe they are just selectively bred to look this way.
    As I understand it, Derek, Troeger's chahoua were in tanks marked "Pine Island" but are almost certainly Grande Terre animals (per Steve Cemelli).

    Before I knew this, I excitedly traded for a young red Troeger "PI" chahoua male that developed into a prototypical Mainland chahoua. Luckily Steve was happy to take it off my hands!

    I debated buying one of Nick's little Czech chewies at Tinley and, for the record, felt he was very honest about providing what info he did and didn't have on them.

    Thanks, John

    Leave a comment:


  • MPLexus301
    replied
    ^I thought Troegers were always Grand Terre/Mainland animals?

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  • cizin
    replied
    Originally posted by DDReptiles View Post
    I'll start off with Nick, since we just spoke on the phone.

    I would not want to breed a "PI" animal into my existing group of "pure" PI and then sell babies down the road as pure if in fact they were not.

    There is a difference both in head skeletal structure and in color.
    As me and Nick discussed on the phone, maybe these animals are just related to Troeger stock (as Troeger animals are similar looking) or maybe they are just selectively bred to look this way.

    Maybe Czech University has different aesthetic tastes than us Americans
    So everyone is in the loop, I called Derek to speak to him about this. As I said previously, I like and have a lot of respect with him, and wanted to make sure he knew why I disliked his statement, I still like him just fine. I just wanted to make sure everyone knows there's no behind closed doors shenanigans.

    Derek, as those animal get older, lets compare them to other European PIs.

    For those not familiar, Troeger animals, which the world recognizes as PI animals, are just as big as 'our' PIs. Their snouts are shorter, and they don't have the same color. My vote was, and still is, PI.

    As far as aesthetics go, let me use my boa breeding as an example. I really, really like RTB to be either low or high patten, not the normal type. In 5 generations, I could not sell RTBs as pure RTBs because people thought one line was mixed with Central American, and the other was mixed with Suriname. If I can do it, anyone can. I'm not special.

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  • cizin
    replied
    Originally posted by AndrewLiu View Post
    Woah there? Did another phylogeny get published? I've briefly looked at a few phylogenetic trees that indicated R. chahoua were still in the Rhacodactylus genus.
    Dr. Aaron Bauer moved chahoua into Eurydactylodes over three years ago. It was long enough ago that it was an issue at the Rhacodactylus symposium held at Tinley a few years back (Which I still am hoping for another of...).

    Now, I still call them Rhacodactylus, just like I (and everyone else who owns them) still call green tree pythons Chondros, and they haven't been Chondros for EVER.

    I personally believe they will be called Rhacodactylus forever, no matter where they actually get moved.

    Leave a comment:


  • cizin
    replied
    Great, great post Derek.

    Leave a comment:


  • goReptiles
    replied
    Originally posted by AndrewLiu View Post
    Woah there? Did another phylogeny get published? I've briefly looked at a few phylogenetic trees that indicated R. chahoua were still in the Rhacodactylus genus.
    Haha I saw that too, but didn't want to say anything...

    Leave a comment:


  • AndrewLiu
    replied
    Originally posted by cizin View Post
    They're also not Rhacodactylus, but since whendo hobbyists care about science?
    Woah there? Did another phylogeny get published? I've briefly looked at a few phylogenetic trees that indicated R. chahoua were still in the Rhacodactylus genus.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rufio
    replied
    I would love to go there before I die.

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  • laura
    replied
    That is why I said it's important to know who you are getting your animals from. I have been diligent about searching out reputable breeders and have been lucky enough to get some amazing pure locale animals.
    I WISH I could go there and hand pick my own!
    Last edited by laura; 10-19-2010, 10:41 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • DDReptiles
    replied
    Originally posted by laura View Post
    I'm also a bit confused by seemingly conflicting statements. On one hand the statement that these could be mainlands. On the other hand there is no detectable genetic difference. Part of genetics is appearance. While I respect you as someone who has a lot of knowledge about quite a few different species. I have to go on record saying I believe it is almost impossible (except in a few color, patterns) to say from a picture what locale these are. Correct me if I am wrong but your statement about how inbred they are would seem to mean that you think there are no pure locales out there. And if that is the case why would you say on your website that you are currently working with both locales. Why differentiate at all if these are your beliefs? This is said with no sarcasm at all, I am truly interested in your opinion on this.
    I'll start off with Nick, since we just spoke on the phone. As I said I am not trying to step on any toes. I really do hope these animals are PI. I am not basing my view on Laura's picture, I have these same animals in my collection right now--I also have a vested interest in these being PI animals (I bought them as well ). However I would not want to breed a "PI" animal into my existing group of "pure" PI and then sell babies down the road as pure if in fact they were not. My name and integrity is behind that gecko so I would want it to be what it is supposed to be.

    My original comment was soley based on me comparing these particular animals to my existing PI/mainland babies/adults. There is a difference both in head skeletal structure and in color. However like any living creature there is varation. As me and Nick discussed on the phone, maybe these animals are just related to Troeger stock (as Troeger animals are similar looking) or maybe they are just selectively bred to look this way. Not every Pine island animal has a white collar, breeders specifically breed in hopes of increasing the white collar both for aesthetic and monetary reasons. Maybe Czech University has different aesthetic tastes than us Americans

    Laura----

    As far as I know there is no detectable genetic difference between either locale. Look at it from a human point of view--white people and black people have the same genetics, yet they have two different phenotypes. I will be honest and say I could be mistaken, in that case if someone is more familiar with the genetics of Rhacodactylus I'm all ears. As far as me thinking that there are indeed pure locales out there- I like to think so. But honestly how can anyone really know? Animals get shipped all over the place, go through many different hands,deli cups get mixed up, labels get lossed, babies get mixed in the incubator, pure geckos get mixed with not so pure animals. All I am saying is you have good dedicated breeders out there who do everything in their power to ensure the best gecko of pure origins. However then you have breeders who will cut corners and sell geckos without knowing the whole background of a gecko or even doing (mis-labeling) so on purpose in order to secure a sale with no concern for the damage they may cause. Just to be clear, I am by no means referring to Nick or Jon- both of these guys know I have the upmost respect for them. I am talking about your "fly-by-night", "dude in the corner booth" breeders.

    In short, our hobby is only as strong as its weakest player. So while we may all like the idea of animals being 100% pure, who honestly can be absolutely certain? There are only a few people who can claim to have absolutely pure animals and they can trace their lines right back to the original adults that were taken out of the wild.

    Take away message- if you want the best animals of the purest origins, get a permit and a plane ticket

    Leave a comment:


  • Lunar Gecko
    replied
    Originally posted by cizin View Post
    If nerds can't argue about the nuances of their hobby, what do they have in this world?
    you know how it goes. Someone says something and the other person takes it wrong. Nothing meant to piss anyone off but it just happens then it all goes down hill. All I was saying was please keep in mind what you say and try and remember that this is the web. Sarcasm and jokes sometimes don't translate well.

    Debate is wonderful. Arguing, not so much.

    Your new chewies look awesome Laura. Great finds.

    Leave a comment:

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