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  • Life and Death

    Hi Guys

    I thought i'd share. I had one baby chahoua hatch last night, and one die in shell.

    The living:


    The dead:


    Best i can figure the dead baby was already dead when i slit open the egg. I'll post more pics of the living baby soon.

    Thanks for looking guys!
    2.3.10 R.ciliatus
    2.2.0 R.auriculatus
    4.4.1 R.sarasinorum
    8.10.3 R.chahoua (PI)
    1.2.0 R.chahoua (GT)

    www.JollyGreenGecko.com

  • #2
    Sorry for your loss, and happy for your new friend.
    Crested Geckos
    Ball Pythons
    African Fat Tails

    www.Geckodelic.com

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Geckod...34486576627889

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    • #3
      that is such a bummer. At least one lived, and it looks like it's going to be very nice.
      Krystal

      Gekkonidazed Geckos

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      • #4
        So sorry that last night was so bittersweet for you! If I didn't have a gecko named that already, that might be what I'd call the baby.

        Both are beautiful though. They have really proven that you have a great pairing. And at the very least, that baby helped to show a time span for cutting a chahoua egg. Its a sad lesson, but I'm sure it will be helpful in seasons to come.

        Can't wait to see new pics of the little one! Blow her a kiss for me
        Meg
        THE GECKO ALCHEMIST
        on facebook

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        • #5
          Sorry for the one you lost. The living baby is super cute.

          I would however caution anyone splitting the egg of a chahoua. I have been told over and over by some of the biggest breeders to never, ever cut open a chewie egg. They will either hatch or they won't. If you get them out, chances are they won't be healthy or you will kill them outright trying to get into that highly calcified egg. With these guys it really is better to let nature take it's course. No matter how much you may want to intervene.

          Can I ask why you chose to cut open the egg?
          Specializing in R. Chahoua

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          • #6
            So sorry that you lost one but its sometimes best to focus in the on the one that survived. Its beautiful by the way.
            Sarah & Jake
            LunarGecko.net
            Feel free to check out our Fauna reviews or follow us on FaceBook!
            You can also check out most of our animals on our iherp page.

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            • #7
              I'm sorry for your loss, the living one is sure too cute
              Katelyn.
              8.1.1 Cresties | 1.1 Gargs | 1 House Gecko | 0.0.1 Tokay | 0.0.1 Leopard | 0.0.1 Chewie

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              • #8
                I have heard of a couple of instances where cutting the egg has saved a hatchling. From a bigger breeder, and a not so big breeder. And also this:
                http://store.supremegecko.com/index....uaMossyPrehens

                Andrew's egg had been sweating the day prior and began to deflate. Candling also showed no signs of movement. I applaud him for cutting the egg when he did. It was a brave thing to do to try and save a hatchling in distress.
                Meg
                THE GECKO ALCHEMIST
                on facebook

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by meg90 View Post
                  I have heard of a couple of instances where cutting the egg has saved a hatchling. From a bigger breeder, and a not so big breeder. And also this:
                  http://store.supremegecko.com/index....uaMossyPrehens

                  Andrew's egg had been sweating the day prior and began to deflate. Candling also showed no signs of movement. I applaud him for cutting the egg when he did. It was a brave thing to do to try and save a hatchling in distress.

                  Frankly if I was buying a baby and the person told me they had to cut it out of the egg, that would be a deal breaker. I would not want a baby that could not exit the egg on it's own, and certainly wouldn't want a weaker animal in my breeding gene pool but you do what you like! No where does that article go on to say that there were not problems with those chewies later on or that they went on to be strong breeders. Survival of the fittest is while cruel an important part of and fact of life! Being told by Alan and Steve to never cut open a chewie egg was enough wisdom for me.
                  Last edited by Jaybee; 09-15-2010, 09:17 PM. Reason: Keeping the peace
                  Specializing in R. Chahoua

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                  • #10
                    There are two sides to every coin. I am ready and willing to defer to first hand experiences. I myself, will readily admit that I have not hatched any chahoua yet, so as of now, I quote what I have heard from others. There's always going to be husbandry differences in the care of any species.

                    But back to the subject at hand, since the hijacking of threads is against the rules here,

                    lets see some new pics of my baby Andrew!
                    Last edited by Jaybee; 09-15-2010, 09:17 PM. Reason: keeping the peace
                    Meg
                    THE GECKO ALCHEMIST
                    on facebook

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                    • #11
                      I definitely think there is a time and place to cut open an egg, and several people have done so with success.

                      It's about going with your instinct, sometimes you are right, and sometimes you are wrong. This is a recent thread about a crested that was saved by cutting an egg open. (although Gary has yet to update us on how it's doing)

                      http://www.forums.repashy.com/rhacod...ervention.html
                      Krystal

                      Gekkonidazed Geckos

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                      • #12
                        Chahoua eggs and crested eggs are very different imo. Even then long term is something that needs to be considered.
                        Specializing in R. Chahoua

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                        • #13
                          Hey guys, I just edited a few unnecessary comments from posts here. I left in the helpful stuff. Please keep personal issues out of a thread where support is most needed. Thanks.
                          JBsCresties.com & Facebook & Instagram, oh my

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                          • #14
                            I will go on record as saying that I have lost fully developed chahoua in the egg. I had a clutch last year where one hatched and six days later the other had not. Chahoua eggs are so thick that sometimes hatchlings cannot get out and I do not believe that this is specific to ONLY weaker individuals that would not survive. The hatchling I liberated is a vibrant, healthy female.

                            I also lost a multitude of auric eggs last year, believing the cause to be Superhatch that was too moist (though all crested and chahoua eggs did hatch save for the liberated one). I cut this baby from a failing egg.... and I am glad I did:

                            Cutting an egg open is NOT something that should be done with reckless abandon. It should not be done unless an egg is failing or there is significant reason to believe that the critter is in duress. I've heard of people panicking and cutting open an egg early.... it is then that you are endangering a healthy critter. MOST times, let nature take its course... but some human babies need assistance getting out of their respective wombs too!
                            Mike
                            www.dragontownreptiles.com

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                            • #15
                              Woah what happened to the thread?!

                              Woah there, interesting turn to the thread. No problem though this is a topic i do want to explore.

                              Originally posted by laura View Post
                              I would however caution anyone splitting the egg of a chahoua. I have been told over and over by some of the biggest breeders to never, ever cut open a chewie egg. They will either hatch or they won't. If you get them out, chances are they won't be healthy or you will kill them outright trying to get into that highly calcified egg. With these guys it really is better to let nature take it's course. No matter how much you may want to intervene.

                              Can I ask why you chose to cut open the egg?
                              Originally posted by meg90 View Post
                              There are two sides to every coin.
                              I have to agree with meg, i believe the best answer is that there are two schools of thought on what to do, and as far as i know there is little empirical evidence on which works out better. For example, while i have heard (and please correct me if i am mistaken) that Allen Repashy and Philippe de Vosjoli do not cut open eggs, they do cite in their book Rhacodactylus: A Complete Guide To Their Selection and Care that "(Wilhelm) Henkel is reported to have slit unhatched eggs after 90-95 days of incubation and to have had good hatch success implementing this procedure"(133). From the anecdotes i have happened to read i do really believe this is a subject we should not close the book on either way yet. It is my hope that eventually enough R. chahoua data will be collected by those studying them empirically to enlighten us.

                              In this case i took a chance and indeed a risk because i genuinely believed the baby would certainly die had i not intervened. I extracted and separated the baby from the egg matter quickly and as far as i can tell with no injury to the baby's body itself. All signs indicate that the baby had already passed away prior to my attempt. My temperature gun indicated that the baby was already at ambient room temperature which indicated to me no life sign for sometime (even organisms classified "ectotherm" produce some heat as a byproduct of metabolism). While it is questionable if my instrument is sensitive enough to measure such a difference, i did also check other signs of life. The baby's body showed absolutely no reactivity to any stimulus, pupils were fixed and entirely nonreactive to light. Absolutely no signs of respiration. Tactile stimulation was attempted without reaction, no nocio-stimulations were attempted (that would be cruel). Based on this evidence i am convinced that had i intervened earlier this baby would have had a better chance at living than none at all.

                              Originally posted by laura View Post
                              Survival of the fittest is while cruel an important part of and fact of life!
                              I do think it is wise to often stop and consider our assumptions before applying ecological and evolutionary theory to our special case and circumstance. If we as herpetological breeders and hobbyists truly wished to subject our animals to natural selection in an effort to produce the "fittest" specimen then why do we not expose our animals to disease and predation? A step further than disease and predation pressures, why don't we design tests in which only the most vigorous of animals would survive to reproduce? I of course do not mean to speak for all herp hobbyists and breeders, but it really does seem to me that we're selecting for the "prettyiest" animals, with a secondary concern to "vital fitness". I believe fitness as it applies to our captive animals is not correlated with vitality but appearance.

                              While i do understand that it is ethical for our trade to cull those deemed certainly unhealthy, i do want to point out that we have little data on the causes of failed hatches. For all we know our low hatch rate in captivity could be entirely ontogenic and not genetic in nature at all. We know very little about the conditions under which R. chahoua eggs develope and hatch in nature. For all we know we could be failing to provide a crucial environmental factor that is deterministic in the hatching of these eggs. Given our tremendous lack of knowledge regarding the science relevant to these animals i am indeed an advocate of giving as many of them a chance at life as possible.

                              That being said,
                              Hey guys more pictures!


                              He looks lazy in this one, but right after i took it he got up balled, rolled and made a run for it!


                              Here he is back in his cup looking at my irritated because i disturbed him for pictures. I get the hint little guy i wont bother you again any time soon .

                              I have recently nick named this little baby "Inertia" because of its peculiar habit of trying to hold its head facing exactly the same direction and exactly the same angle relative to the horizontal axis. No matter how i rotate or tilt his container he always moves his head to stay facing that one direction. Hence, Inertia!
                              2.3.10 R.ciliatus
                              2.2.0 R.auriculatus
                              4.4.1 R.sarasinorum
                              8.10.3 R.chahoua (PI)
                              1.2.0 R.chahoua (GT)

                              www.JollyGreenGecko.com

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