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Thread: Why do you breed? NO ARGUING! Mature debate only!

  1. #1
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    Default Why do you breed? NO ARGUING! Mature debate only!

    So I'm a part of a few reptile Facebook pages. And just now, I came across a post that made me cry.



    No this isn't gecko related, but I wanted to bring notice to this, the topic of breeding. I wanted to know other people's stands on it. This is very obviously the result of improper breeding. Those of you who know Bearded Dragon genetics will understand this more than others who don't, but all you basically need to know is this: Two parents that should NEVER have been bred together, were bred together. That is the most likely case... or this was just a very poorly developed egg that managed to hatch. This baby is in the hands of rescuers who are trying to save it, but I doubt it will make it very long. We all have different stands on this, but honestly this poor creature should have been humanely euthanized. It is no doubt in tons of pain right now. But the debate of whether to try and save or euthanize is not the topic right now. Right now... I want to share my opinion on why we breed animals.

    Breeding animals... should not be done just because you want to breed two of your favorite animals together. It should not be done for money either. If you plan to breed, your SOLE PURPOSE should be to further the species by promoting strong genetics and furthering morphs. You should have a goal, a project. Do you like Harlequins? That's great! But don't go out and breed them if you don't have an idea of where you want to go with the morph. Do you want to bring in more white? Bolder colors? What????? I also don't agree with taking animals from pet stores and breeding them. You have no idea of their lineage, or anything about their family line. They could have genetic issues that you have just now introduced into the gene pool of the species. It's part of the reason why I dislike the Lily White gene. It's already been reported that 2 lily whites bred together produce poor offspring that either die in the egg or die shortly after hatching. Now here they are being breed to other morphs, creating more lily whites and spreading. What's going to happen when this gene gets into the majority of the population? What happens then if we end up with 2 geckos who possess the lily white gene and they get bred? Will we eventually end up with a huge section of geckos that can't produce viable offspring? It's a nightmare of mine.

    I love this community, and others, but I see it too often and it hurts. I see a bunch of people who have only had these species for a year... maybe two and go "YES! I love them! I want to make babies!" And they do it just because they want to breed the animals. No. Please don't do that. The gecko market is already super inflated and you'd only be driving down the true value of well-bred animals from people who are truly trying to further the breed. You're doing more harm than good if you're just breeding for the sake of breeding.

    The only time I believe one should breed animals is to further the genetic pool via better, more developed morphs or to try for NEW morphs. OR! To breed for the sake of saving an animal from extinction. This is why I want to breed Abronia's, their habitats are suffering greatly, and it's very likely that a good chunk of sub-species could die out, and that's one thing that are super great about breeders. Their creating another 'colony' of the species so that if they do die out in the wild, there is a backup. It's a wonderful thing.

    I want to breed my Crested Geckos because I want to further develop a morph. I love orange creamsicles. I have a goal. a project! I want to create bolder, richer oranges and whiter creams.

    I want to eventually breed Brazilian Rainbow Boas because there's a very specific morph I like, that's not really out there yet and not fully developed to it's full potential. I want to further that morph.

    Gargoyle geckos? I'm still on the fence about it, it's up in the air because I'm not sure what I want to bring to the species, and I am not going to breed them UNTIL i know this.

    This is my stand. I also mainly just wanted to rant about it all and get it out of my system.

    I am very curious though where others stand. Please keep this civil. No arguing. No rude remarks. Nothing. If you have a completely different view than someone else, that's fine! You are entitled to it! I want to know how the community, on average, sits with breeding, and I'm curious about how many people agree with my views as well. This is a pure curiosity thread.
    Last edited by Mechanical8Dragon; 08-07-2017 at 10:40 PM.
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  2. #2
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    To answer the primary question... for the love of the species, the community and to learn and create visually stimulating examples. The visual aspect lends itself to educating others, in and out of the community, by playing on our inherent curiosity. The reward is being able to help others learn and find enjoyment in the species.
    On the debate end of this civil interaction, I am not in agreement with having to know lineage to such a degree. I see so many hobbyists consumed by the absolute need to know lineage. Being responsible is one thing, but we are dealing with a species that seems to be genetically hearty. Buying from multiple sources, based on traits you want to enhance or propigate, is not so bad. I think the biggest issues with some pet stores are husbandry needs being met and cross species contamination. Pet stores are not all the same and generalizing them is not an accurate way to depict them as a whole.
    After keeping crested geckos for over 10 years... and spending ample time on forums over the years, I find that most issues come from new keepers. There are many typical issues that could have been avoided. Quarantine any new animal, don't put it on soil from your yard, don't mix species, etc...
    This list just goes on and on. Much of this gets blamed on someone or something else rather than someone owning up to their mistakes and learning from them.
    I think your frustration is with the typical ways of the general public and the inherent ways of self entitlement that run rampant. Not all newbies are an issue, so continue to show them what we know and let them fall off if they don't have what it takes... you can't fix stupid and you can't stop them from trying. Lol

    Gargoyles... bored me to tears. I had the red blotched stuff many years ago and nobody cared or wanted them. Now it is the rage and it will probably fade off in cycles like I have seen in the past. After the crestie market surges the gargoyle market picks up. The crestie people look to go further with the NC species and this is a natural progression for many. I still can't understand the price point. They were more productive than cresteds for me. I think their potential may take longer to be realized because the tendency of breeders to get out of them in waves. There appears to be fewer long term breeders with this species.

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  4. #3
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    I agree that knowing lineage shouldn't be so hard set but i believe new breeders shouldn't be buying from pet stores and breeding geckos with bad structure and color and such, that just floods the market with more geckos that nobody really wants. As well as buying low quality geckos, you're taking the risk of passing on bad genetics or diseases or creating stronger, weak genes, like higher chance of MBD or resperatory issues or eye issues or infirtility or improper calcium intake and stuff like that. As well as passing on bad structure and color.

    I personally breed because I love crested geckos and would like to start a new morph as well as creating another line of geckos (black based, cream/white pattern (extreme harlies, maybe add the snowflake trait into another line) full pinners). I know the lineage o both my breeders and I have to say, people always say
    "Breeding cresties is like 's box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get!" Which is a somewhat false statement, knowing lineage allows for stronger genes (depending what on your pairs) and you have another high chance if properly predicting the adult coloration and structure of babies. Not knowing lineage (pet store geckos) you don't know what you're going to get when you breed them because you don't know genetics. You could breed what seems to be 2 flames and expect flame babies but you could get dals or harlequins or full pinners or bi colors or patternless or more flames and they could be any color. When I first started to breed I bred a red flame and a yellow brindle reverse pin (one from pet store one from a keeper, no known lineage) and I got completely patternless geckos and one harlequin hatch out, all were just brown/yellow colored as well. But with frogger (black harlequin partial pin super dal, northern gecko lines) and bumble (blonde harlequin full pinner, one parent was from pangea, other parent was from northern gecko) have prouduced gorgeous harlequin partial pins, with my first clutch being full pinners and one oddball red (almost extreme) harlequin popped out, all geckos are starting to develop dots and one baby hatched with them, all are probably gonna end up like an exact mix of mom and dad, all because lineage was known, and all the babies have great structure and are developing amazing pinscales at only 2-3 grams. All these babies will have a higher price due to the fact that I know lineage, so yes i think it's important to know but it's not mandatory to breeding. Like if you've got 2 really nice adults that would make a good pair then go ahead and breed but just be careful of possible diseases and stuff that could be passed down.

    That's all I've got lol
    Sam
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    ah yes perhaps I should have worded that sentence a biiit differently. Ah the wonders of commas. The no lineage thing was pointed towards buying from pet stores. Not necessarily from reputable breeders who sell babies with no parent info. Although i personally only buy animals with listed lineage, it is what I prefer BECAUSE i am forming a project. I need to know the lineage I feel in order to make a strong base. But yeah. Sorry I need to go and fix that -creeps back to post-
    Check out my website for helpful info about Crested Geckos, Gargoyle Geckos, Abronia Alligator Lizards, and Brazilian Rainbow Boas
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    It's totally okay! I do it sometimes as well lol
    Sam
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    I have seen known lineage animals kill a season by producing nothing that represents the parents. Each individual has genetic predispositions. Finding key animals, that really amplify, are consistent and fit into your specific project can only be found through a series of breeding trials. When you identify them it becomes well worth the time. It took 15 females being bred into a specific project male to find 2 that really kicked it up a knotch. They look nothing like what they do other than base color. I think it is a common train of thought that 1X1=1, but finding that 10 to throw into the mix will set your project up for success. Reproducing with a polymorphic species mixes things up and it is not always visible. If you can't find an amplifier animal for the trait you are trying to express, to a greater degree, it will take much longer to achieve.

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