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Thread: Axanthic crested geckos (grey gecko project)

  1. #1
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    Default Axanthic crested geckos (grey gecko project)

    We finally got some pictures posted of the Axanthic Crested Gecko project we acquired from Katherine. A huge thank you to her! We are extremely fortunate to have this opportunity!



    ADULTS

    Alaban- Male





    Alaban with one of his mates for this year





    Flint- Male




    Flint with one of his mates for this year




    Lias- Female




    Lias with her mate, Rocket




    JUVIES


    Gradient- Probable Female




    Indi- Probable Male

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    Looking, looking, there's Gradient! I mean, they're all amazing, but Gradient has had a special place in my heart since I first saw her. (Probably the 5th time I've said that, hint hint hint lol) I like Indi too, he has the most pattern of the group which I like. My guess is that he'll look like an Alaban clone when he's an adult. They're all very special and I can't wait to see what they produce for you! *and me, mwahahahaha*
    Mary Frizzell
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    Badass Brian!
    Good luck with your new project bro!
    4.3.0 Rhacodactylus leachianus - Yatè, Mt. Koghis, Rivière Bleue, purple Nuu Ana, Poindimiè
    3.2.0 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
    1.1.0 Gekko gecko
    2.1.0 Python regius

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    I will be very excited to see what hatches! I guess I would have expected the Greys to be bred with blacks for some reason.

    Rachodactylus Ciliatus

    2.2.5.2
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    This is a very exciting project! They are definitely unique. I admit I was skeptical at first but the original producer has been very upfront and honest in providing pictures and video and other info that she has. She's produced all the requested evidence and you are also a respected breeder and have full confidence you are representing these animals to the best of your and your camera's abilities. I'm mentioning this because there are always detractors when something new shows up, and we've already been through all that. I'm sure some people have doubts but everyone's entitled to an opinion.

    I have a few questions... I understand if you want to keep some of the specifics under wraps as you explore this as a possible recessive mutation! I'm not an expert in other reptile genetics as it pertains to morphs, so I hope I don't misrepresent anything here.

    Do you think this is an axanthic or anerythristic mutation? Or a hypo-xanthic/anery? There really appears to be dilution going on, and a high possibility that its simple recessive. I'm sure seeing them in person may shed more light onto which colors are being affected.
    *edit* I Just noticed you clearly put axanthic in the title and in the first sentence. Please excuse my lack of comprehensive reading skills!

    By pairing to a yellow, are you hoping to prove out axanthic? As in, the offspring of these pairings may look normal (yellow or any other color, including grey as this is possible due to selective breeding) but be het. Future breedings, if this is axanthic, you'll stop getting yellow but may produce reds as well as visual greys.

    You may already be pairing these guys with reds, but if not I would recommend doing so to prove out anery, leaving you with yellow and no red.

    On the other hand, these could be an accumulation of unintended selection that just happened to hit the right combination with the parents, meaning it could be all up to future selective breeding to bring out the greys, and not have as big of an impact on the other colors. But who knows! Playing with pattern would be great for a grey & white gecko or somehow create a tricolor version.

    Do you have any specific goals in mind with the projects? Anything else you are hoping to discover and produce?

    Quote Originally Posted by JumpinJewels View Post
    I guess I would have expected the Greys to be bred with blacks for some reason.
    It would depend on what contributes best to a black crested gecko. This looks like a dilution that affects melanin as well. Crossing it to a dark/black crested would probably not lead to the experimental results above. Either you'd get greys or blacks as well as other colors, just like you would with typical pairings. It doesn't immediately impact the following generations (doesn't isolate anery/axanthic) and doesn't (IMO) add anything to either color. It would be good just to see what happens, but pairing with the other colors can help expand our knowledge of crestie genetics based on what we know of color morphs in other reptiles.

    Can't wait to see what happens! Probably won't be any in the F1 generations (if this is simple recessive), but we might get some pleasant surprises! Good luck with the project!
    Last edited by Spyral; 04-21-2014 at 02:59 AM. Reason: I can't read!
    Specializing in Crested Geckos
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    Fantastic post! You hit a lot of it right on the head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spyral View Post
    This is a very exciting project! They are definitely unique. I admit I was skeptical at first but the original producer has been very upfront and honest in providing pictures and video and other info that she has. She's produced all the requested evidence and you are also a respected breeder and have full confidence you are representing these animals to the best of your and your camera's abilities. I'm mentioning this because there are always detractors when something new shows up, and we've already been through all that. I'm sure some people have doubts but everyone's entitled to an opinion.

    I have a few questions... I understand if you want to keep some of the specifics under wraps as you explore this as a possible recessive mutation! I'm not an expert in other reptile genetics as it pertains to morphs, so I hope I don't misrepresent anything here.

    Do you think this is an axanthic or anerythristic mutation? Or a hypo-xanthic/anery? There really appears to be dilution going on, and a high possibility that its simple recessive. I'm sure seeing them in person may shed more light onto which colors are being affected.
    *edit* I Just noticed you clearly put axanthic in the title and in the first sentence. Please excuse my lack of comprehensive reading skills!

    It is my belief that these are a form of axanthic, though I admit it is possible that are actually Anery or something similar as you said. I came to my conclusion of axanthic by looking at their tails. We call the markings on most geckos tails white, but really they are cream colored. The tails on these guys are pure liquid paper white. My guess is the axanthic gene taking the yellow pigment out of cream leaves pure white behind. The pic below really shows the tail color off clearly.





    By pairing to a yellow, are you hoping to prove out axanthic? As in, the offspring of these pairings may look normal (yellow or any other color, including grey as this is possible due to selective breeding) but be het. Future breedings, if this is axanthic, you'll stop getting yellow but may produce reds as well as visual greys.
    More or less, yes. I bred them to yellows with this thought in mind. If we look at ball pythons for example, a double recessive albino axanthic is called a snow. (pictured below is a albino, an axanthic, and a snow ball python) The albino gene takes out all melanin, leaving only yellow. The axanthic gene then takes out the yellow leaving a mostly white snake with only faint pattern showing through. Obviously with no albino cresteds I can't make true snows, but we don't need an albino to get a yellow crested. I'm using "C2" line yellows, as the C2 gene appears to be a dominate mutation, a form of hypo that takes away a lot of the dark pigments. (not an albino but better than just a line bred yellow) If we can succeded in making what I have in mind, I wouldn't call them snows (in case an albino does ever come around and true snows are ever possible) but how awesome would a white on white pinstripe be? Dare I use the M word, I may use that label for them in an attempt to resurrect that unicorn of a morph under new guidelines.



    You may already be pairing these guys with reds, but if not I would recommend doing so to prove out anery, leaving you with yellow and no red.
    We do have one (Flint) being bred to a red harlequin. I am not sure that, even if these are axanthic, it will not affect a red gecko however. That would be the case only if we assume a red gecko isn't influenced at all by yellow pigment, which we don't know for sure. Red's may be the combination of several colors/pigments and could still be affected by the gene. Only way to find out is to breed them! Eventually we also plan to bred them to patternless reds and see what that does.


    On the other hand, these could be an accumulation of unintended selection that just happened to hit the right combination with the parents, meaning it could be all up to future selective breeding to bring out the greys, and not have as big of an impact on the other colors. But who knows! Playing with pattern would be great for a grey & white gecko or somehow create a tricolor version.
    Because the greys have full siblings that are totally normal, I think its clear this is some kind of Mendelian on/off type gene. As for getting pattern on them, because several of the siblings are patterned, yet all the greys are patternless, I suspect the axanthic gene may actually mute out the Harlequin gene. Though I fervently hope that is not the case. Regardless, if you look at the first pic I posted in this post, he clearly has a small amount of white pinning. So I am sure we will see axanthics with white pinstripes. The question is will they have any other pattern or only white pinning.


    Do you have any specific goals in mind with the projects? Anything else you are hoping to discover and produce?
    For now we are looking to make pinstripe/harlequins, and see what happens with a yellow version. I am limiting what projects I bring them to for now, as the need to hold back and breed Het's means I hold back a ton of animals and I don;t want to flood the market with hets or end up with more holdbacks that I can manage. In 2015 I think we will add breeding them to our yellow inkspot superdal line to the list of projects.



    It would depend on what contributes best to a black crested gecko. This looks like a dilution that affects melanin as well. Crossing it to a dark/black crested would probably not lead to the experimental results above. Either you'd get greys or blacks as well as other colors, just like you would with typical pairings. It doesn't immediately impact the following generations (doesn't isolate anery/axanthic) and doesn't (IMO) add anything to either color. It would be good just to see what happens, but pairing with the other colors can help expand our knowledge of crestie genetics based on what we know of color morphs in other reptiles.
    You pretty much answered it here. Most people have shown me a high contrast black and white harley they think I need to breed these to, because the gecko they showed me has little color as well. Usually they are thinking in terms of selective breeding and how cresties have been bred up till now. They think to make more greys I need to breed them to grey/blacks. If I were selectively breeding for grey geckos that would be the case, but with these the genes do the work in making them grey on their own. Breeding these has to be approached with a totally different mindset than breeding cresties ever has.


    _____________________________________________

    It's intensely amusing the people who can't understand this and refuse to believe they are anything special. They've cause quite a stir on facebook with a few people who aren't capable of understanding Mendelian genetics. They post pics of any greyish gecko and scream I'm a liar who is trying to con everyone and they've been breeding these for years. One guy actually keeps asking how many generations Katherine line bred kids back to parents to refine the color, refusing to believe they weren't selectively bred through line breeding lol!


    Can't wait to see what happens! Probably won't be any in the F1 generations (if this is simple recessive), but we might get some pleasant surprises! Good luck with the project!
    Thanks! I can't wait to see how it all plays out! I'm incredibly lucky to have this chance that's for sure!
    Last edited by AltitudeExotics; 04-21-2014 at 07:08 AM.

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    I would definitely say flame/harley markings are possible, considering the little guy at the beginning of this thread: http://www.pangeareptile.com/forums/...ighlight=weird

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    Thanks for the mention Brian! Good to see some excellent photos of the gang.

    Sapphire, check Brian's last photo on his first post (Indi), this is the same gecko as the one in the link, just grown up a lot. Seems that the dorsal patterning has faded out some, but i expect it to come back in a little as he matures from what happened with Alaban's patterning.

    I am glad to see some open and thoughtful discussion on these guys now Brian has them and people are accepting that the photos were never edited in any way when I posted them while they were with me.

    Brian always keeps an open mind about crested gecko traits and sees the potential. Like with the ridgeback trait and with these guys. That's why he is going to really help move the understanding about heritability of crested gecko traits forward. And he has some seriously amazing geckos to cross these with. I am most excited for the Rocket/Lias crossing, even though Alaban is my favourite of these guys so far. Love that gecko

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    Oh my gosh, that's the same gecko?? That's so weird that the cream on the back has faded out, I don't know if I've seen that on any other gecko before! Maybe Brian is right then and cream fades down with this gene, like how the phantom trait seems to mute out the cream. I hope that's not the case though and you can produce the most stunning harleys possible.

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    I so appreciate the time to explain things! So interesting and looking forward too seeing all generations!

    Rachodactylus Ciliatus

    2.2.5.2
    MUNKEY, PEACHES, MORROW, THIMBLE, KILI, GOLLUM, FALCOR, CHEECH & VALENTINE

    Rachodactylus Auriculatus
    1.2.1 KEKO, ARRO, PEBBLES & FALCOR

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