Page 26 of 26 FirstFirst ... 16242526
Results 251 to 256 of 256

Thread: Is CGD 3.0 Causing Liver Failure and Deaths?

  1. #251
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    1,484
    Thanks
    297
    Thanked 485 Times in 335 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MistyC View Post
    "I NEVER even said I think it was the food!"
    "there is a CHANCE that the food may have contributed to the death"
    Yes..apparently I am putting words in your mouth...Okay.
    Anyways, like I mentioned previously, there are so many factors that aren't being considered I feel it is pretty unfair to assume the prime suspect is the food. Not just in Julie's case, but in all the reports.
    Ok, we've got to stop being so defensive over the food (and MistyC, while I'm using your quote as an example, I am not singling you out). Unless and until anyone can 100% prove otherwise, there is a chance - and I don't care if it's 0.00000000000001% or 10% or even 50% - that the food does, in some way shape or form, play a role in a gecko's ill health or death. It is NOT an attack on Allen, or Clark's, or BFG or PFM. I don't know why people get the impression it is. This can be said about ANY food, fed to ANY reptile. This is fact, and if hearing that one person's fear is that the food possibly in some way contributed to the death of their reptile means that they are "fear-mongering" and this will affect other people's perception of the food in question as a whole, then, well, you're not giving people much credit for being able to think critically and independently.

    For example, do you know pinworms can come from crickets? And untreated pinworm infestations can lead to ill health and/or death?

    Now say your gecko died from unknown causes, but the gecko was being fed crickets. This means that there is a chance that the gecko died as a result of contracting something from the crickets. Yes? Yet...if anyone were to come on this forum and state that they suspect or were concerned that crickets were somehow possibly responsible for the death of their gecko, and therefore they won't be feeding crickets to any of their geckos anymore, they wouldn't get thrown in the fire for it. They wouldn't be accused of "fear-mongering" or making false accusations/attributions. The cricket industry or any one brand of supplier wouldn't suffer as a result, and there wouldn't be mass panic (as it's been implied) with people rioting against the feeding of crickets. Absolutely there will be and should be a discussion of the keeper's care to ensure it wasn't something else unrelated to crickets. And sure, after all is said and done you'll have some people give up the bug habit. Everyone is influenced to some degree by the decisions and opinions of others, and if they choose to alter their feeding habits simply on the basis of someone else's experience, so be it. They have much to learn about thinking for themselves.

    So why in the case of Repashy are the posters being incinerated for their personal decision to switch foods based on their perception/fear of the potential risk in feeding that particular food, when I can guarantee that almost every responsible person in their situation would do the exact same thing if it meant the difference between their gecko eating/thriving vs. not? And stating their reason for switching foods is because there is a risk, no matter how small, that the food in question contributed to the death of a previous gecko? Can you promise me that the food isn't connected to the death in any way, shape, or form? No. No one can. Therefore your implications that the poster should remain silent on her concerns or only focus on the other possibilities because it's "unfair to assume the prime suspect is the food" is incredibly misguided.

    I have stated my opinion before, so I will not repeat myself other to say that I do know without a doubt there are MANY factors which can contribute to the death of a gecko, some which are in the keeper's control, some which are not. Not once have I said that I believe Repashy is flawed or unhealthy. In fact, I have stated that it works great for my geckos, and I have no desire to switch at this time. While a thread like this is definitely informative and an eye-opener, it does not affect my personal decision on how I care for my geckos. There are many people who stand behind that same sentiment.

    Fear-mongering starts when people believe there is a genuine reason to be afraid. What promotes fear? Silence, avoidance of the possible issues (vs. open discussion and ideas), people being skewered for having beliefs contrary to others, and fear of being able to express oneself. This is not what this forum is about, and should NOT be what this thread is about.

    Correlation does NOT equal causation. This is one of the first lessons taught in any statistics class, because media sources (such as TV, radio, the internet, and forums) are notorious for manipulating our perceptions into thinking that a correlation between two items means the one caused the other. This is entirely false. However, it does not mean the correlation doesn't exist, and that we shouldn't discuss it. Absolutely there is a correlation between the death of the gecko and the food offered. This does NOT mean the food was responsible for the gecko's death, and the poster never stated as much. If anyone wants to interpret it that way, it is their prerogative, but it is not up to us to hold each keeper's hand and walk them through every aspect of gecko ownership or tell them what to do. Having an open, informed thread discussing BOTH sides of the issue is the best way for hobbyists, new and old, to make an informed decision regarding the care of their geckos.

    In the reptile world, anything is possible. Parthenogenesis. Two-headed reptiles. And the possibility that a reputably great product does not work for every gecko. Keeping an open mind to both sides of the discussion will do more to help people come up with reasonable possibilities and solutions to helping their geckos that are not directly attributed to the food than actively trying to discourage them from thinking about the potential correlation in the first place. Providing specific suggestions, for example (as mentioned by previous posters) that the temperature of the food may have an impact on the gecko's food preference, is an excellent idea. Saying something along the lines of "it must be something in your husbandry or care that's wrong, but whatever it is, I know it's not the food" does nothing for anyone.

  2. The Following 15 Users Say Thank You to cassicat4 For This Useful Post:

    312Herps (05-21-2013),Charis (09-24-2013),Crestielovely (05-17-2013),Emmy (05-17-2013),Gecko Girl (05-24-2013),Iggy (05-22-2013),insaneglitchx (05-18-2013),Jatbi (05-18-2013),juliethegr8t (05-17-2013),llurgy (05-17-2013),NiceRhac (05-18-2013),possum (05-17-2013),Samantha12986 (05-17-2013),silverstar (05-17-2013),StickyFeetReptiles (05-17-2013)

  3. #252
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    18
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Default

    Instead of all this bickering too bad we couldn't just have a poll asking if your crestie was eating the new CGD 3.0 or not. I know I would be interested in those results.

    Brad

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to bbatman99 For This Useful Post:

    Gecko_Haven (05-17-2013),meg90 (05-17-2013),MoonriseGeckos (05-18-2013)

  5. #253
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    653
    Thanks
    139
    Thanked 217 Times in 126 Posts

    Default

    The attitudes in this thread are really starting to disgust me. I am so full of rage right now over the way people will honestly attack people for sharing their experiences and thoughts.

    Let's go with my FACTS AND OBSERVATIONS.

    1. I started using 3.0 the week or so after it was available to wholesalers. I have a wholesale account and just happened to finish my bag right when 3.0 came out. (I think this was my 9/9/2013 order, but the invoice isn't the most descriptive. I can share with you the invoices if you need more justification.) (FACTS)
    2. I began selling it to people at my local reptile expo the month that I got it. (FACT, I can share with you my bookkeeping)
    3. There was some amount of tasting going on as soon as I fed it (OBSERVATION). One girl LOVED it and grew ridiculously well eating it. (FACT, I have her tracking on iHerp here)
    4. After the end of November rolled around, the food consumption in my colony decreased greatly. I attributed this to the change in seasons and pulled back feeding to once every 3 days. (OBSERVATION followed by FACTUAL INFO)
    5. In December and January I received complaints from customers about their geckos not eating 3.0. One said he could only get it to eat 3.0 if he dusted crickets with it. (FACT. I have no records of this as they were personal conversations during the expo)
    6. During the Dec and January months I noticed my animals not touching their food at all. Some would every 3rd feeding or so (which are every 3rd day at this point) (FACT) Some began to lose weight. (FACT, although, honestly, I stopped tracking the weights on iherp at this point because I WAS EMBARRASSED. I thought this was somehow my fault and I was an awful gecko owner. You can see I stopped tracking on iherp. At this point NONE of my juvies was eating and NONE were growing).
    7. We had a long and cold winter. My house was kept at 68-70F at all times in the gecko room. I have a thermometer which tracks the high and low temp and humidity in the past 24 hrs. (FACT) The light periods during winter do no affect my geckos - They live in the basement and my lights are on a timer. (FACT)
    8. Things were just looking awful around February. No one was eating. Not even the ones who loved Repashy not several months ago. At this point, I was still getting customers coming to me about feeding issues. I decided it was time to email Repashy Ventures. Allen was gracious enough to respond and essentially said he was only getting positive responses, and you can't please everyone (paraphrased, but I can provide my email and his response) This was Feb 27th. (FACT.)
    9. At this point, I start feeding PFM along side the Repashy I keep offering. First night I offer, they DEVOUR it. Kind of like they haven't eaten in months... Fancy that. (FACT - I can dig up my order for PFM, followed by OBSERVATION, followed by a touch of snark cuz I'm pissed)
    10. Every single time I offer PFM, I have clean to nearly clean plates. (OBSERVATION)
    11. I start to try new things. March 25th I give BFG a try. First night only a few ate it, but they were healthy licks. Next feeding, everyone licked. (FACT followed by OBSERVATIONS)
    12. Geckos still won't touch Repashy. I will be happy to offer it next feeding and take photos of the results. (OBSERVATIONS with the offer of FACTS)
    13. In an effort to find some more foods they would eat, I tried Clark's. April 10th my order of 4 Clark's flavors were shipped. (FACT)
    14. Geckos regularly devour PFM, and BFG. (OBSERVATIONS)
    15. My geckos ALL tried Clark's, but ate the different flavors with different gusto. Papaya was a favorite, and they didn't touch fig for the most part. (OBSERVATIONS).
    16. I am now feeding a rotation of PFM (always eaten by all geckos), BFG (eaten by most geckos, in large amounts by some), Repashy (NEVER TOUCHED BY ANY GECKO), Clark's (Feeding ranges depending on the flavor offered) (OBSERVATIONS)
    17. I rarely feed bugs, and did not offer any during the winter months when everyone was off feed as they were not healthy looking at the pet store and I couldn't have them shipped in the snow. (FACT)
    18. Fecal exams were done in July and October. Some geckos in July did have nematode infections. Everyone was treated with Panacur. October fecals were clean. Those who were diagnosed started gaining weight after their panacur treatment but then slowed when 3.0 came out. (FACT, I don't think I have the vet bills for this anymore, though)
    19. Since offering other foods, I have seen better growth rates. During this time my light cycles, humidity AND temps were exactly the same as the bad months. (OBSERVATIONY FACTS)
    20. Other info - I have always used Chlorohexidine to clean my gecko tanks (FACT). I do not refrigerate my gecko foods - they eat it fast enough that I don't have to. I use room temp dechlorinated tap water to mist and mix food. (FACTS)
    21. I have a range of 45-65 geckos (FACT. they hatch, they sell, the number fluctuates) I know them all by name, and I know their individual favorite foods.

    So let's recap. Did I have any deaths? No. Did I have geckos refusing food? Absolutely. Did I have geckos then devour other foods? Yes.

    Where did I go from there? I tried to figure out what was different. I also noticed that 3.0 was less sweet (this was from me smelling and tasting it. I still have bags of 2.0 to compare to). What did I do to try and test the hypothesis? I blended a touch of ripe banana and honey into the 3.0. Did it do anything? No.

    I talk to a lot of people about geckos a lot of the time. In fact, I talk about geckos every day. So when I started comparing notes on what was going on with my animals with others and found they were having similar issues, I started to think it may have been the food. There are people who I talked to about every single thing mentioned in this thread. They can vouch for me. I am not just making this up as a hey something happened it must have been the food. No this has been happening for months and I have been working to address it.

    Could it have been something other than the food? SURE. BUT it seems like a WILD COINCIDENCE that that's what most people having issues have in common. The more people who chime in with issues, the LESS LIKELY it is to be something OTHER THAN the food. EVERY OBSERVATION is valuable. I'm pretty sure none of us keep the level of detail as well as fecals on such a regular basis to point to anything else at this point. It seems very UNLIKELY that all of us had temp swings or humidity issues or light level issues, or moved tanks or sneezed the wrong way around our animals. And even LESS LIKELY that these issues ONLY HAPPEN ON NIGHTS WHERE WE FEED 3.0!! I can't believe that people are even debating this! If our geckos aren't eating 3.0 and ARE eating other foods, why in the world would we NOT think it is the food? How can poor feeding responses to one food and not another NOT be the food?

    And as far as the deaths and cruddy eggs are concerned, those MAY be the food. To say the food shouldn't be even hypothesized as a potential issue is ludicrous. Just because people had it happen does not make it definitely the food, but it DOES make it worth looking into! Maybe it isn't the food's nutritional contents, but the fact that our geckos just aren't eating.

    The purpose of this thread was not to point a finger and say 3.0 is the culprit. End of story. This thread was created in an attempt to learn if others really were having similar problems. 3.0 was hypothesized as the culprit as it was the only thing that was changed husbandry-wise. EVERYONE who said they were having problems backed up what they were saying with VALID OBSERVATIONS and a guess as to what it might be. To pick these apart and say no it must be something else because you're doing it wrong and don't have necropsy papers (AND even those WITH necropsy papers weren't fact enough).

    EVEN though Mr. Repashy has tested and tried his diet on his own colonies, that doesn't make the diet infallible. I don't know what is different between his husbandry and mine. Maybe it is a combination of the food and my tap water that makes it smell bad to the geckos? I don't know, but I do know it is worth looking into.

    To those who have had issues with deaths, I feel for your loss. And I apologize for some of the comments in this thread.

    To those who have had issues with gecko food acceptance, there have been lots of suggestions such as temperature, consistency, or all out food changes that have been suggested. I am not a gecko nutritionist by any stretch of the imagination, but I would be happy to talk to anyone about my OBSERVATIONS with new foods and how it took to my colony.

    If 3.0 is working for you, awesome! I am honestly happy that you don't have to deal with what some of us are dealing with. Because that is your experience, however, does not make ours invalid.

    If 3.0 is not working for you, hopefully we can continue to refine our FACTS and OBSERVATIONS and formulate proper experiments to tell for sure. Since Mr. Repashy doesn't seem to think it is a problem, we are going to have a harder time without his expertise and knowledge of geckos behind it.

    If anyone has any questions or would like me to further prove any of my facts, PM me that you asked me in this thread because it may get lost in the sea of commentary otherwise.

  6. The Following 24 Users Say Thank You to Vienna For This Useful Post:

    312Herps (05-21-2013),cassicat4 (05-18-2013),Charis (09-24-2013),Crestielovely (05-17-2013),CrowTRobot (05-18-2013),Emmy (05-17-2013),Gecko Girl (05-24-2013),Iggy (05-22-2013),Jatbi (05-18-2013),juliethegr8t (05-17-2013),KevinS (05-17-2013),Kimfishepet (05-17-2013),llurgy (05-17-2013),loui1203 (05-18-2013),MoonriseGeckos (05-18-2013),NiceRhac (05-18-2013),Purple Trex (05-18-2013),Samantha12986 (05-17-2013),Shutter (05-17-2013),silverstar (05-17-2013),StickyFeetReptiles (05-17-2013),Styx (05-18-2013),The Living Palette (05-17-2013),Untaimed (05-18-2013)

  7. #254
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Central Wisconsin
    Posts
    2,786
    Thanks
    149
    Thanked 447 Times in 224 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vienna View Post
    The attitudes in this thread are really starting to disgust me. I am so full of rage right now over the way people will honestly attack people for sharing their experiences and thoughts.

    I'm concerned about the language being used in this thread. Maybe it's time to close this thread and give everyone a few days to calm down.

    It's important for people to share their experiences and participate in a discussion. However, if it comes down to people getting down right nasty toward each other, well that's not going to do anyone any good.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to that_girl For This Useful Post:

    bbatman99 (05-17-2013)

  9. #255
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    New JERSEY
    Posts
    5,687
    Thanks
    162
    Thanked 338 Times in 171 Posts

    Default

    I used to love hamburgers from Wendy's. Better than any other fast food burger to me. Then they changed the way they were prepared. They taste different. I no longer like them so I get chicken sandwiches.

    I had a friend that died. Once I saw him eating a Wendy's burger. I'm glad I stopped eating them. This is so suspicious. I think I'll start a massive public debate and man, if Wendy's corporate doesn't answer... or if they DO answer but tell me that it isn't their burger that did it, That proves they are in fact responsible. If when they answer they seem a little rough around the edges in defending their burgers and provide in detail their full list of ingredients by amount, offering details that I could not possibly understand or recreate, this will just irritate me further.

    I knew somebody that was in poor shape. He would eat tons of these burgers. I said, "You must eat these healthy things, like bran and rice cakes and yogurt". One day I saw him having a sweet treat outside of Dairy Queen and asked him why he wasn't eating healthy food? He said "Awww, but this tastes SO much better."

    Now I think that maybe I started eating chicken because I could drive there and pay with my own money. I could choose to eat what tasted better. My dead friend maybe didn't die because of that burger but we'll never know for sure because by the time his family found him under all the paper towels it was too late to do an autopsy... so they just wrapped him up in the paper towel and flushed him down the toilet.

    And my unhealthy aquaintance... yeah, it would be better if he stuck to a healthier diet... you know, one that has tons of research behind it with proven results over many years.... but it turns out that a sweet and fatty diet simply tastes too good to avoid.

    If any of this sounds ridiculous..... it should. Change the food's taste and it will not be readily received. Offer candy to a child and 99 times out of 100 they will choose it over a bowl of broccoli. And for cryin' out loud, get that autopsy for your friend and don't just flush him down the toilet and blame his death on the food.

    Everyone here is comparing dogs and cats and humans to geckos, cause you know, we're all the same deep down inside... by the way, the only truth I uttered above is that I really DO hate their new burgers!

    Again, as a reminder... please refrain from getting heated here. Opinions do differ and we are all entitled to our own, but without proof, all we have are uneducated opinions and there's not much worth less than that.

  10. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Dragontown For This Useful Post:

    Bumblebat (08-01-2013),George? (05-17-2013),Larissa Lurid (05-17-2013),Mimmieux (05-17-2013)

  11. #256
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    northern IL
    Posts
    8,007
    Thanks
    112
    Thanked 978 Times in 362 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by that_girl View Post
    I'm concerned about the language being used in this thread. Maybe it's time to close this thread and give everyone a few days to calm down.

    It's important for people to share their experiences and participate in a discussion. However, if it comes down to people getting down right nasty toward each other, well that's not going to do anyone any good.
    Just so we are all on the same page, the mods are all behind Krystal's decision to close the thread. I apologize for not having the time to thoroughly monitor it. Thanks Krys.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •