Page 1 of 9 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 86

Thread: The Trials and Tribulations of Twenty Chahoua: Fruit Diets, Fads and Fairy Tales

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    1,950
    Thanks
    27
    Thanked 96 Times in 50 Posts

    Default The Trials and Tribulations of Twenty Chahoua: Fruit Diets, Fads and Fairy Tales

    Lately I have seen a fair share of posts about feeding practices or diet concerns related to Chahoua, none of which are things I haven’t dealt with in the past. I know that most people on Pangea are big fans of Repashy CGD so it’s no surprise that it seems to be at the center of most of these discussions.

    After reading these posts and others over the last two years, I have to admit that my history with Chahoua and Repashy CGD has been very different from what many other Pangeans have shared. Before I get started, I want to disclose a few things:

    I have kept Crested Geckos for the better part of 5 years – not as long as some members here, but certainly long enough to be relatively well experienced with the species. I’ve kept and bred Chahoua for a little longer than 2 years now and consider them to be my favorite reptile. As such, I’ve put significant time, effort and money into observing, monitoring and documenting as much information about my 20-ish gecko Chahoua collection as possible.

    I have had great success with CGD and my Crested Geckos, but a noticeably less positive track record with my Chahoua. If you search the forums, you can find several of my earlier posts about having Chahoua who refused to eat CGD or were picky about doing so. I’ve also had numerous conversations in chat, via email and on the phone with Pangeans, small-scale hobby friends, larger well known breeders and others about this very issue, and the answers and experiences are quite varied – far more so than the replies on this forum would lead you to believe.

    Pangea is a wonderful community and I know that many of us take pride in supporting Matt, a friend and valuable resource to many of its members. Others are close with Allen Repashy on a personal or professional level and feel that his research and work on the MRP is second to none. I think these are both noble and understandable positions, but must note that in my experience, Chahoua are more of an outlier among the greater Rhac group whom CGD’s success is often based upon.

    I often see that when someone mentions feeding supplemented baby food or Clark’s diet, they are met with an immediate backlash and accusations of malnutrition or poor husbandry. While we all care for the animals first and foremost, let’s take a step back and not jump to conclusions so quickly.


    A few things to consider:

    Two of the largest Chahoua breeders in this country feed supplemented baby food in addition to dusted insects. I think it’s safe to say that both of these people have significantly more experience in breeding, raising, and keeping Chahoua than any on this forum and I know that many of us look up to them when we need help, guidance or are looking to add another Chahoua to our collections. Why are we so quick to turn a blind eye to their feeding practices but don’t think to hold our tongues to members here who do the same? It’s a tad hypocritical, methinks.

    Repashy CGD is cheaper than Clark’s and much cheaper than supplemented baby food. Wouldn’t it make sense to assume that if these breeders (and smaller time hobbyists, too) thought CGD was as great as most Pangeans do, they’d not hesitate to hop on the band wagon and save a few hundred bucks a year? Not to mention that CGD is less labor intensive to prepare and serve, stays fresher for longer and doesn’t go bad as quickly in the cage. Why would anyone want to make something harder and more expensive than it had to be?

    Repashy Crested Gecko diet was originally formulated for Crested Geckos…a close relative of the Chahoua as we all know. If I recall correctly, Allen Repashy ditched his Leachianus diet and added more protein to the standard CGD so as to sell one diet that was universally accepted by most of the Rhacs. Gargoyles eagerly eat CGD from what I hear, but I have no knowledge of Saras or Trachys. When I had Leachies, they ate CGD willingly and cleaned their bowls consistently.

    Considering this “one size fits all” mentality, apes are very closely related to humans… so why don’t we make them eat the same things we do? Martinis, fried chicken, protein shakes, pot roasts, hamburgers, salad, whipped cream? Could it be that Chahoua actually have different needs and tastes from Crested, Gargoyles, Leachies and other Rhacs, and are not as well served by CGD? I think it’s a question worth asking, at least after reflecting on my two years of experience.


    My experience:

    Disclaimer: I’ve learned a lot over the last two years and have kept my Chahoua in glass tanks, plastic tubs, planted vivs, basic setups with papertowel and fake plants, lower ventilation, more ventilation, etc. At this point, I think I’ve got it down to a pretty good routine but through all of these changes, my gecko’s diet preferences remained relatively similar.

    My first Chahoua:

    After observing my Cresteds chow down on CGD happily for a few years, and reading posts about Chahoua doing the same thing on Pangea, I figured that my first Chahoua would be no different. To the advice of some on this forum, I fed him fresh CGD every other night and dusted crickets once a week. It didn’t take long for me to notice that he was not eating nearly as much CGD as my Cresteds (of any age or stage) but inhaled far more insects. I held true to what I read and maintained the feeding regimen that I outlined above, even though there were times where he was eating absolutely no CGD at all. Some nights he’d eat some on his own, but he also had a very noticeable under bite and I made it a priority to hand feed him CGD for the first several weeks to be sure that he was eating enough and properly cared for. (Side note: I bought him as a pet, he had the underbite when he was born)

    He never ate much CGD in early life, but as he got closer to a year and a half old, I noticed that he became less enthusiastic about insect prey and spent more time at the CGD bowl.

    My second Chahoua:

    As many of you can relate, after my first Chahoua, I was positively hooked so it didn’t take long before I had my second. While the first may have raised an eyebrow over his lukewarm reaction to CGD, the second eventually sent me into an all-out panic over (what I was sure to be) impending death from a lack of the stuff. He never, ever ate any CGD. He ate plenty of dusted insects but never, ever CGD in any meaningful quantity. At this point, I began experimenting with different flavors, one part, two part, adding honey to entice him… you name it, I did it. There were a few points where he took a lick or two from the bowl, which sent me into frantic excitement, but over the long term, he never really ate any CGD.

    I, of course, turned to Pangea for help since I was sure that I had a freak of nature on my hands. After all, my Cresteds ate plenty of CGD and it seemed like everyone else’s Chahoua scarfed the stuff down, so why wasn’t mine?! I took the advice of some members here and stopped feeding him bugs in an effort to “starve” him into eating the CGD. The first time he went on strike for two weeks before I gave in and fed him insects. Over the course of this standoff, he lost 5g. The second time lasted for longer than three weeks, and he lost 11g before I caved and fed him bugs.

    Contrary to what I was reading here about a lack of CGD essentially killing my gecko, I looked at his weigh sheet and noticed that he was gaining plenty of weight with the insects. His tail was perfectly straight and decently thick/fatty. I stopped worrying, but made an increased effort to be sure that his bugs were gut loaded, hoping that this would help give him the nutrition that he wasn’t getting from the CGD.

    Baby food:

    After my first and second Chahoua, I continued to add new geckos to my collection and most of them had similar feeding reactions: happy to scarf down bugs but CGD was pretty much a waste of my money. I tried hand feeding on several different occasions and the geckos would take it if forced, but never on their own will, out of their food bowl inside their enclosures.
    Last year I purchased four juveniles from a small breeder who I knew fed supplemented baby food. At first, the idea made me uneasy but this individual has kept and bred Chahoua for 16 years and still has the same pairs that he originally bought - these guys were among the first Chahoua to enter the country. From the very beginning, he fed supplemented baby food and dusted insects. It worked well and he never saw a reason to deviate from his routine: even after CGD V1 came out and Clark’s hit the scene, he tried both of them and had a poor feeding response on both.

    He offered me a great price on these babies so I moved forward with the deal, in the back of my head thinking, “What kind of whack job still feeds baby food in 2010 when we have CGD?! He is nuts!” and I assumed that once they reached my care, I’d offer them the Repashy stuff and start them on the same regimen as all of my other Chahoua.

    When I received the shipment, I was absolutely shocked: I opened the box to find four babies, all approximately two-three months old but weighing between 15 and 17g. This was a shock because I had geckos that were the same weights at two or three months older, and had never seen such big, healthy vibrant babies at such a young age. I offered CGD and all four of them turned their noses up at the stuff, but who could blame them after three months on sweet, delicious baby food?

    I had several long conversations with this breeder about how he had such large healthy babies. I wanted to know more about his husbandry and feeding practices. As it turns out, he simply used peach, banana or mango organic baby food and mixed in a bit of Miner All. It is what had always worked for him and he never saw reason to change his routine.

    After struggling to get my guys to eat CGD for so long, I figured I had nothing to lose with supplemented baby food. Plus, after receiving these babies, the proof seemed plain to see: these guys were BIG and outwardly, very healthy. I played with the flavors, but many of my Chahoua took to the supplemented baby food in a way that they never had before: there were huge tongue marks in the food and sections of the bowls were licked clean. This was very different from what I was used to with CGD.

    Around the same time, I had egg-laying females who, like all of my Chahoua, were not particularly enthusiastic about their CGD and their tails kinked up pretty badly after laying. The eggs looked fine but it took these girls a while to get their calcium levels up. After I started feeding the supplemented baby food, I –literally- never had so much as a kinked tail after my girls would lay. They laid big beautiful eggs without a kink, wave, or jagged line anywhere to be seen. I was amazed.

    Back to CGD … and Clark’s

    Even with such positive results, the prospects of feeding baby food made me uncomfortable because I had seen and heard so many horror stories about MBD geckos. I was also not looking to be attacked by certain forum members for my feeding practices, so I figured that CGD was the safest route. Plus, it seemed to work for everyone else but me so maybe I was doing something wrong. I took a long look at my cages, temps, humidity and even how I was preparing the CGD (even though I had done it correctly for years) because I was SURE that there was something wrong with what I was doing.

    At this time, I started opening up conversations with other forum members (some who are senior members and well respected leaders here) about what I could be doing wrong. Around this time, an interesting thing happened: as long as it wasn’t in writing, in stone, people seemed willing to admit that their Chahoua never really ate CGD with the same gusto as Cresteds or other Rhacs. One person actually mentioned to me, “I don’t think mine eat any, but I still put it in there just because.” As it turned out, I guess I wasn’t alone!

    During this time, I also turned to a well-respected breeder, who is also one of the larger and more prominent names in the hobby, and he mentioned that he had also tried CGD and Clark’s with no luck. Referring to both as “prepared diets”, he and said that none of his geckos ever showed much interest, so he went back to feeding supplemented baby food. I have a few animals from this person and all have been pristine, healthy and beautiful.

    Regardless of all this data, I recommitted myself to making the CGD work and continued with the newer CGD versions, flavors, one part, two part, etc. I would notice an increased interest from my geckos once I switched flavors, but there was never any lasting interest or consistency in how CGD was consumed.

    I tried a sample of Clark’s briefly and never had much interest there either…perhaps because my geckos were refusing anything but the baby food at this time.

    Clark’s…again

    After a few more months of little-to-no success with CGD, regardless of the flavor or version, I decided to give the Clark’s diet another try. I read that there have been some changes to the mixture so I figured, “What the hell?” and went for it, starting with the banana flavor.

    Whatever changes have been made to Clark’s in the last few months must be significant because my Chahoua eat this diet with fire in their eyes! As soon as I put cups in the ledges, I have geckos coming towards the front of the tank for their food. They immediately dive right in and will eat a sizeable portion of the food within the first few hours. I’ve gotten a greater response with Clark’s new diet than I did with supplemented baby food and especially CGD.

    I have been using this food for the last three months and plan to stick with it for the foreseeable future. I have also, on occasion, slipped some CGD into their bowls because I like for my geckos to have a varied diet and also believe that CGD is a solid product, despite my (now) well-chronicled history of poor reception on behalf of my Chahoua. The geckos do not touch the CGD, though I might have a lick-mark here or there across 20 geckos.

    NOTE: I consistently fed my Crested Geckos the CGD because they never had a negative or lessening feeding response like the Chahoua. In fact, there were a few times where I tried feeding Clark’s to the Cresteds and they wanted no part of it. The reverse is true for my Chahoua, who love Clark’s and disregard CGD for the most part.


    Personal thoughts and review:

    I want to be clear that I still think CGD is a very high quality product and one that I support. My Cresteds and Leachies both took to it happily and I never had any issues with their appetites or health. My Chahoua never had any health problems on this food (aside from perhaps kinky tails on breeding females, but that might be a stretch to blame on CGD), they just never really consumed it. However, what good is a diet when your geckos won’t eat it?

    As is illustrated above, I have gone to great lengths to make sure that my Chahoua are well cared for, well maintained, healthy and thriving. When I had fewer Chahoua, I read the responses and thoughts on this forum regarding CGD and thought I was doing something wrong. As I started doing my own research, reaching out and trying new things, I realized that what works for everyone else on Pangea might not work for me. I also have a collection that now spans 20 animals and the findings above have been consistent across 16 of them who will barely or not eat CGD but willfully consume Clark’s. 3 of them will eat some CGD and also eat some of the Clark’s. 1 of them does not care much for either diet. All geckos responded very well to the supplemented baby food.

    I believe that when Chahoua are younger, they will show more interest in insects vs. a fruit diet. My younger Chahoua are the most reluctant to eat Repashy CGD but will eat Clark’s happily. These geckos will eat insects over any type of fruit or prepared diet. As they age, the geckos seem to be more interested in a fruit diet and less interested in insects, outside of the breeding and laying seasons.

    I dust all of my insects with a variety of calcium supplements – Miner All, Repashy SuperCal Med D, Repashy Calcium + ICB. I alternate these on different feedings, at will, but mostly use either of the Repashy products.

    I feed insects 1-2 times per week, across all of my Chahoua regardless of age or sex. As you might have gathered from the data above, with my geckos not really eating CGD, not feeding insects was never really an option.


    Take-aways:

    My main point in this epically long post is to show that, in my opinion, you shouldn’t feel ashamed or incapable of trying new things with your Chahoua just because everyone else disagrees. Even though these animals are “just” reptiles, they are all different with different tastes and personalities. What works for me or anyone else on this forum might not work for you. I think it’s important to monitor your animal’s health as the first indicator of how a diet or product is working.

    We know a lot less about Chahoua than we do Cresteds, Gargoyles or Leachies. The Rhac Bible only has a few scant pages on Chahoua, in comparison to the thick volumes on Cresteds and Leachies. In the background, there has been some discussion about reclassifying Chahoua into the Eurydactylodes family or writing Chahoua-specific books about the species. These both remain to be seen, but in my experience, I can say that these guys are the oddballs in the Rhac world and do feed, breed and live differently than their cousins.

    Many people seem content to care for their Chahoua the same way that they care for their Cresteds. This may or may not work for some folks, but when you have females who calcium crash badly or consistently raise adult animals that are 10-15-20g under the “goal” weight range for a locale, perhaps it's time to look at your options and see what you can change, regardless of what diet or feeding regimen you use.

    In the periods where I have migrated away from feeding CGD, I’ve noticed the following:
    • My geckos, universally, eat more fruit diet whether it is Clark’s or baby food
    • Juveniles grow faster and have an increased drive to consume live prey as well
    • Breeding females do not have nearly as bad of a calcium crash after laying eggs, some show no signs of calcium crash at all
    • There is a LOT more poop to clean!

    Even considering my success with the Clark's diet, I would never switch my geckos to a fruit/CGD/Clark's-only meal plan, as some have done with Repashy CGD. Watching Chahoua hunt and seeing the enjoyment that they get out of snagging crickets or roaches is not something I would like to deprive them of. Growth rates are an obvious indicator here, but more important than that is breeding. In my experience, females NEED the extra protein and calcium during the breeding season! Juvies need it as they grow and mature! Males need it going into the breeding season as mine tend to slow down through the winter! READ: Chahoua need bugs!

    I have seen some comments about Clark's diet simply being full of sugar which is why the geckos eat it so readily. Well, I am guilty of lacing my CGD with honey, nectar and baby food, all of which are sweeter than the Clark's, and the geckos never took to any of my concoctions. I doubled the flavoring in the two part CGD and that never mattered either. Even when feeding the baby food, I added a dab of honey as a preservative, effectively adding even more sugar to a sugary base. None of these enticed the geckos like Clark's does. There is something about the CGD that my geckos simply do not like, and I don't think it's a lack of sugar.

    Last but not least, I have seen people discuss Clark's diet and say, "Well, if you would let your kid eat sugary treats instead of their fruits and veggies all the time, I'm sure they would enjoy that," implying that Clark's diet is the sugary treat and Repashy CGD is the fruits and veggies. I think we should give these reptiles a little more credit. Animals tend to know when their bodies are lacking certain vitamins and minerals and try to find ways to address such deficiencies in their diets. We are not talking about 8 year old children looking for a sucrose high. This is just my own theory, but if the geckos were eating as much of the Clark's as they currently are, and didn't "feel" well, they would have most certainly stopped by now. I don't think Clark's is just a sugary treat at all...it's the only fruit diet that my geckos will consistently eat in a sizable volume. The results, thus far, seem to speak for themselves.
    Charming Chewies: Specializing in Grand Terre and Pine Isle locales of chahoua.

  2. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to MPLexus301 For This Useful Post:

    aalbertson3 (02-14-2013),charvey (02-07-2013),Cicada Hollow (03-09-2013),Emmy (08-20-2013),jdragonwings (04-15-2013),Kwnbee (02-22-2013),Pugwinkle (07-28-2014),sarahberry (08-23-2013),Treebiscuit (02-13-2013),Vienna (02-07-2013)

  3. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    WI
    Posts
    2,854
    Thanks
    241
    Thanked 265 Times in 93 Posts

    Default

    Almost all of my babies have eaten CGD with gusto, but after they get to a certain size, their interest in it seemed to waver. But from gram sizes 3-10g I had licked clean dishes and the portion was that of a crested atleast twice their size. I used to have a 5g kid that would eat more cgd than a 20 gram crestie.

    I just got some of the new clarks, but I have yet to try it. I'll do so this week and post the results here. One of my subadults is in a ridiculously picky phase and will even only consume a few bugs at a time, compared to the droves she used to eat. I don't know what her issue is, but with tail and jaw ok, I'm assuming its just a phase.

    For the record though, I have chahoua that ADORE cgd. My oldest female will eat cgd out of my hand every feeding night. I always make a point to hold her cap up for her before I set it in the cage and she will sink her lower jaw down into the mix and shovel it in with her tongue.

    I use one part and various flavors. I ran through a bag of fig I won in a raffle and they seemed to take to it. I've also laced the CGD with honey as a "treat" feeding, and I did notice an increase in what was consumed when I did that.

    Since we are all being ridiculously honest here, I have to say that I add Calcium with no D3 to my dry cgd almost every feeding before I mix in the water. Just a pinch, not enough to change viscosity or taste, and I've found that with more Calcium in the mix, the chahoua almost always eat more. Calcium is not secreted by their bodies, and I think that the high percentage of underbites we are seeing these days is largely the lack of adequate calcium in their diet. I always dust my bugs as well.

    I'm too scared to try baby food though. I have never even given it as a treat, for fear that my chewies will latch onto it and refuse to eat anything else. I don't want to mess with creating a balance with supplements, and risk getting something wrong.

    I had a female go through a calcium crash this year, but with CGD, daily dusted bugs, and added Rescuecal she bounced right back and her appetite has been better than it ever was.

    I haven't had any tail kinking on the repashy but if I try the clarks, I will be sure to keep an eye out for it.

    I've mixed my cgd thinner, and thicker and I have to say, if its thin they have no interest at all. Too thick and it sits in the bowls as well.
    Meg
    THE GECKO ALCHEMIST
    on facebook

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Thank God back on the East Coast!!
    Posts
    2,285
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post

    Default

    Well I must say that I applaud Michael for writing such a well thought out and controversial post. The fact is I think everyone should be able to share their experiences here on Pangea even if it doesn’t fit with popular opinion without getting flamed. After all aren’t we all supposed to be concerned with taking the best care of our animals instead of worrying what others will think or say?
    Michael and I have the largest collections of chahoua at least that I know of on the forum. We talk often and share ideas and experiences with each other about the care and daily observations that we make concerning these wonderful animals!
    Years ago I tried Clarks with crested and did not have much of a response so I stayed with CGD. After getting the chahoua bug, I like Michael wondered why I didn’t see my chahouas eat with the same gusto as my early cresteds. Bugs of course were a different story and I often wondered if the young ones had hollow tails they would eat so many at one setting.
    Over the years I had also tried doctoring the CGD to see if I could get them to eat more with organic honey, fresh fruit, small amounts of organic baby food and even the Rapashy fruit mix nothing increased their feeding amounts. So I then began to branch out into feeding a wider variety of bugs, well gut loaded and dusted. I still offered the CGD fresh every other night throwing much of it away after the second night. This was not only frustrating but expensive when we are talking about the amount of animals I have.
    Michael told me about trying the Clarks and the over-whelming positive response he was getting. So I ordered a small bag of the new complete formula anticipating the same kind of response I had gotten before with the cresteds. Boy was I wrong, as well as shocked and happy! Until seeing bowls licked clean of the Clarks I never knew how much diet these guys would or could consume! Now no one turns their nose up and there is hardly any left to throw away the second night.
    I will continue to offer the CGD regularly to give them some variety but I whole heartedly agree that this diet has something that attracts every chewie in my collection and it isn’t extra sugar! If that were the case then adding sweeter things to the CGD would have elicited the same response and it never did!
    Incidentally I had two mainland babies hatch on July 24 2011 they are 17 weeks today. They hatched around the same time that I started using the Clarks so have eaten mostly it and bugs. They weigh 13 and 14 grams. They are not flabby or squishy but well-muscled robust babies with no under bite issues showing. My husband had seen them when they were first hatched but then we were apart for some time as he started his new position in CT and I packed up our house in IL. He was truly shocked when he saw them and couldn’t believe it was the same two babies. I don’t know what better example I can give then that.
    Specializing in R. Chahoua

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Central Wisconsin
    Posts
    2,786
    Thanks
    149
    Thanked 447 Times in 224 Posts

    Default

    I've had R. chahoua for over 4 years, raised many babies, purchased animals from different lines. 14 now with two more eggs to go.

    I have never had a chahoua not eat the cgd. I've never had a picky eater, maybe I am just lucky?

    All of my chahoua have grown and reached maturity within 2 - 2 1/2 years. I've never had someone not grow to my expectations. Persie, who originates from Vicki at BFG, was 50 grams at 14 months old. Not a single bug, ever.

    Our first clutch of PI babies hatched out at the beginning of July this year. They are 20 grams and 16 grams this week. In four months, that's a 5 gram gain per month. I wouldn't want my chewies to grow any faster than that. Reptiles that grow too quickly can have issues. I'd rather mine eat well and grow slowly, since chahoua should not be bred until they are a minimum of 2 2 1/2 years anyway. They get b. dubia roaches once a week, cgd every other night. Bowls licked clean.

    I don't believe chahoua to be an outlier as you call them. They are grouped in the Rhacodactylus genus for a reason. Even if they are moved to the Eurodactylodes group, we know that those geckos also do well on the cgd. They come from the same place in the world, and they can interbreed with cresteds and produce offspring.

    I'll continue to feed cgd and live foods as I've always done. The people at Clark's can't even tell you what's in their diet, and I would never buy a product that doesn't come with an ingredients label.

    So call me one of those backwards people if you wish, but that's what works for me. Your post comes across as one where "other people" lead those on this forum to believe cgd is some sort of consipiracy theory. And I've always been open and honest about the care of my animals, not one of those people who leads others to believe one thing but does another as you are suggesting some people do.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to that_girl For This Useful Post:

    doom sayer (02-07-2013)

  7. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Thank God back on the East Coast!!
    Posts
    2,285
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post

    Default

    I have never had a chahoua not eat the CGD at all either but on the other hand I have never had one eat it like they enjoyed it as I see them react to the Clarks.
    I suppose if chahouas were only offered CGD and given minimal bugs they would eat enough to keep from going hungry but this is hardly a qualifier that they enjoy eating it, more that it is all that's made available.

    The fact is people have been slammed for trying any other diet than the Rapashy CGD on this and other forums. I find it hard to believe that no one else has experienced problems as it applies to chahouas with the diet. Or could it be like me they never realized how little of the CGD their chahoua were eating because they had nothing to compare it to? Between Michael and I we have an obscene amount of chahouas and I don't think that in a pool of animals this large that they are some sort of exception.

    My smallest breeding age female in my collection is 55 grams which I think is small for a PI the rest of my girls weigh an average of between 60 and 70 grams with my boys average between 70 and 80 grams. These are weights I think should be typical for breeding PI again these are averages. I have some that are monster large! Lol!
    I know there are people that have breeding females that are closer to the 50-52 gram range and are happy with that size however I am aiming to breed chahouas that are closer to the top of PI weight range. Anyone who has seen my animals in person knows they are healthy large animals in no way fat or lethargic. On bug night I hear them crashing around making use of every inch of their cages. My point is I will do whatever I think will make my chahouas the healthiest happiest rhacs they can be. Yes I said happiest, and yes I know they don't have human emotions but you can tell when an animal is doing more than surviving. When we confine any animal for our own purpose I feel we owe them at least that much!
    Specializing in R. Chahoua

  8. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Central Wisconsin
    Posts
    2,786
    Thanks
    149
    Thanked 447 Times in 224 Posts

    Default

    ...too early to make a coherent post...

  9. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Thank God back on the East Coast!!
    Posts
    2,285
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post

    Default

    (Krystal no offense but I think you are choosing to see the post in that light. Now this sentence makes no sense since you deleted your entire post....) I re-read the post and Michael says many times that he believes CGD to be a good product although maybe not the best for his chahouas or all chahouas for that matter. While at the same time pointing out a viable option that is not fraught with as many problems as most people claim or assume.

    He stresses that its important to observe your animals and make choices based on the individual. If you are happy with the results you are getting on cgd I feel like the message in this is post is "great continue what you are doing". However if you are having problems this might be a solution a person could try.

    To be honest I have always been bothered by the "mold inhibitors" in the cgd as I don't know what that is exactly (or the effects) and have always felt it was better to throw the product away during the heat of the summer than to have something added that would encourage people to be lazy about checking the food. Lets be honest it starts to stink way before it grows hair! If you look at ANY processed food label for both animals and humans there are things that unless you are a chemist you aren't going to know what they are or what exactly they do. Although I can honestly say in both my food and the animals in my care I try to minimize the unknowns as much as I can.

    I don't want to speak for anyone else but I do feel this post was written to address the need for open dialog and not to bash or promote one product over another but to point out that there maybe options if a person is having issues. To address what those options might be and to point out that trying those options doesn't make you a bad keeper.
    Specializing in R. Chahoua

  10. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    139
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    " cgd every other night. Bowls licked clean."

    wow you are lucky!! I have two and one is a real pain in the butt and the other not a very big fan...

    Thank you for your informative post...this answered all of my questions and concerns I had with my chewies diet...I like breeders who are open minded and share their knowledge with other owners...

    I am going to give a try to Clark's and see how mine like it...hopefully they will eat more
    1.1.0. Crested Gecko
    0.0.1 Gargoyle Gecko
    0.1.1 Chahoua
    0.0.1 leachie- Nuu Ami
    1.0.0. Yorkie
    0.1.0. Cockatoo- Aleeta

  11. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    northern IL
    Posts
    8,007
    Thanks
    112
    Thanked 978 Times in 362 Posts

    Default

    Knowing the general tone of the forum re: any kind of diet aside from CGD, I appreciate the guts it took for Michael to post this. As a general note, please be respectful in your replies because the mods are watching.

    Creepy, creepy mods.

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jaybee For This Useful Post:

    jdragonwings (04-15-2013),rwintjen (02-20-2013)

  13. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    1,950
    Thanks
    27
    Thanked 96 Times in 50 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by laura View Post
    Until seeing bowls licked clean of the Clarks I never knew how much diet these guys would or could consume!
    To me, this sums up the whole thing. I'd take out the CGD after the second night and see maybe a lick mark or two but the rest looks just as it did when I poured it. When I take out dishes with the Clark's, I see a few random "spots" of the diet left in an otherwise clean cup. It's crazy!

    Quote Originally Posted by that_girl View Post
    I've had R. chahoua for over 4 years, raised many babies, purchased animals from different lines. 14 now with two more eggs to go.

    I have never had a chahoua not eat the cgd. I've never had a picky eater, maybe I am just lucky?

    All of my chahoua have grown and reached maturity within 2 - 2 1/2 years. I've never had someone not grow to my expectations. Persie, who originates from Vicki at BFG, was 50 grams at 14 months old. Not a single bug, ever.
    Those are awesome results...I am glad that CGD works for you. I wish it was the same way for me, but we all have different experiences, I suppose.

    Our first clutch of PI babies hatched out at the beginning of July this year. They are 20 grams and 16 grams this week. In four months, that's a 5 gram gain per month. I wouldn't want my chewies to grow any faster than that. Reptiles that grow too quickly can have issues. I'd rather mine eat well and grow slowly, since chahoua should not be bred until they are a minimum of 2 2 1/2 years anyway. They get b. dubia roaches once a week, cgd every other night. Bowls licked clean.
    Agree here: I'm not looking to over/super feed my guys...I'm not saying that I like the Clark's just because they eat so much more of it, I like it because they eat it at ALL. I just want consistent growth rates, healthy adults and capable breeders, all supported by a varied diet.

    I don't believe chahoua to be an outlier as you call them. They are grouped in the Rhacodactylus genus for a reason. Even if they are moved to the Eurodactylodes group, we know that those geckos also do well on the cgd. They come from the same place in the world, and they can interbreed with cresteds and produce offspring.
    Agree here as well. I'm not particularly convinced that Chahoua are closer related to, say, an Agricolae than a Crested. My main point here was that the Chahoua are very different from the other Rhacs in terms of bug intake, breeding, calcium needs, personality, etc. This has also been the case (in my experience) with their disinterest in CGD as opposed to other Rhacs.

    I'll continue to feed cgd and live foods as I've always done. The people at Clark's can't even tell you what's in their diet, and I would never buy a product that doesn't come with an ingredients label.
    I don't blame you at all. Judging by the numbers you posted above, it seems to me like you've had good success with it. If I had an experience like yours, I'd have never looked elsewhere.

    Here are the ingredients in Clark's Complete Diet, the version that I feed:

    Ingredients on The Complete Formula:
    PASTEURIZED EGG WHITE (AVIDIN DENATURED BY PASTEURIZATION), PASTEURIZED EGG YOLK (AVIDIN DENATURED BY PASTEURIZATION), AIR DRIED FIG POWDER, AIR DRIED APRICOT POWDER (AIR DRYING RETAINS ALL NUTRITION), BEE POLLEN (AUSTRALIAN, JARRAH TREE), RICE FLOUR, BANANA FLAKES, TRI-AND DICALCIUM PHOSPHATE, SOY OIL-LECITHIN, MIXED TOCOPHEROLS (TO PRESERVE FRESHNESS), ELECTROLYTICIRON, ZINC SULFATE, ALPHA TOCOPHERYL ACETATE (VITAMINE E), NIACINAMIDE (A B VITAMIN), RIBOFLAVIN (VITAMIN B2), PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE (VITAMIN B6) , THIAMIN MONONITRATE (VITAMINB1) FOLIC ACID (A B VITAMIN) VITAMIN B-12 (CYANOCOBALAMIN). VACUUM DRIED RAWHONEY (RETAINS ALL ANTIBIOTIC / NUTRITION / PRESERVATIVE QUALITIES) MINER-ALL , SPIRULINA / CHLORELLA(100% PURE, BROKEN CELL WALL FOR EFFICIENT ABSORPTION OF NUTRIENTS, VITAMIN D-3 (400 iu per pound)
    And the guaranteed analysis, for what that is worth:

    Guaranteed Analysis: Complete Formula
    Test performed by Auburn University Feed Analysis Labortory
    Moisture 4.63%, Dry Matter 95.37%, Crude Protein 20.00%, Digestible Protein 15.10%, Fiber 4.00%, Crude Fiber 4.25%, Total Digestible Nutrients 74.05%, Metabolizable Energy 2.85Mc/kg, Calcium 1.97% Phosphorous 0.34%, Calcium / Phosphorous Ratio 5.79

    So call me one of those backwards people if you wish, but that's what works for me. Your post comes across as one where "other people" lead those on this forum to believe cgd is some sort of consipiracy theory. And I've always been open and honest about the care of my animals, not one of those people who leads others to believe one thing but does another as you are suggesting some people do.
    Quote Originally Posted by laura View Post
    (Krystal no offense but I think you are choosing to see the post in that light. Now this sentence makes no sense since you deleted your entire post....) I re-read the post and Michael says many times that he believes CGD to be a good product although maybe not the best for his chahouas or all chahouas for that matter. While at the same time pointing out a viable option that is not fraught with as many problems as most people claim or assume.

    He stresses that its important to observe your animals and make choices based on the individual. If you are happy with the results you are getting on cgd I feel like the message in this is post is "great continue what you are doing". However if you are having problems this might be a solution a person could try.
    Laura's post is spot on. I don't think poorly or even disagree with anyone who feeds CGD and has success with it. I don't think it is "backwards" if it works for you but it did not ever work for me. Similarly, I am not quite sure how you contrived consipracy theory from my post...?

    Quote Originally Posted by farrah65 View Post
    " cgd every other night. Bowls licked clean."

    wow you are lucky!! I have two and one is a real pain in the butt and the other not a very big fan...

    Thank you for your informative post...this answered all of my questions and concerns I had with my chewies diet...I like breeders who are open minded and share their knowledge with other owners...

    I am going to give a try to Clark's and see how mine like it...hopefully they will eat more
    Your other topic in this forum is one that reminded me of myself, and inspired me to share my experience. Keep us informed on how your little one grows and progresses in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybee View Post
    Knowing the general tone of the forum re: any kind of diet aside from CGD, I appreciate the guts it took for Michael to post this. As a general note, please be respectful in your replies because the mods are watching.

    Creepy, creepy mods.
    Creep.
    Charming Chewies: Specializing in Grand Terre and Pine Isle locales of chahoua.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •