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Thread: Thing 1 & 2's Gargoyle Morph Guide

  1. #21
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    Excellent guide. Thank you! Question though... How much of this has been mapped to genetics? I mean, like in pigeons there is a "morph" called "Blue" that is mapped to an allele on the sex chromosomes with "Ash-red" and "Brown". Seems to me that redrum could very well be just "red" with "superstripe" and not truly a morph all on its own.
    Unfortunately just like with cresteds no genetic mapping has been done and they seem not to be able to be mapped like with leopard geckos or ball pythons and it would seem... pigeons. All you can do is put two animals together with similar desirable attributes and hope. If your lucky you'll get something of the two in at least one gecko from a season. No genetic traits have been proven true with Rhacs. Cresteds and gargoyles are the only ones that really have any actual morphs just now. Sure you have locals but not many actual morphs. Like with chewies there are a few colors combos and a few things like stripes/pinning on saras or snowflakes on leachies but thats about it. Morphs, like with cresteds, tend to be things like traits and color changes building on an older morph to distinguish differences in a single phrase... such as tigers to brindles or Harley to extreme Harley to Halloweens or Blonds. Then you have Dalmatian to super dalmatian to marti gras.

    If at some point genetic mapping can be proven in rhacs Im sure most of the established morphs will be readdressed and redefined but until then we have what we have.

    Hope that makes some sense.
    Last edited by Lunar Gecko; 07-14-2010 at 10:14 PM.
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  2. #22
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    For the record Lunar, I require babies from your "Redrum" garg to further survive the year.

    Also, GREAT guide. +10

  3. #23
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    Yes excellent guide and excellent answer Lunar. Thanks for taking the time. I've just started into Gargoyles and if I ever get any eggs I plan on trying to track colors\patterns somehow to look for any possible method of determining genetics. I've heard the claim that color and pattern in Rhacs are "polygenic" and while this can still be mapped it becomes very complicated. Checkout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_trait_locus on the subject. I don't get most of it but it appears that it involves statistical analysis plus a DNA Mapping to some degree. Sigh. And I wanted to know if my retic on striped would give me retics, stripes or both and more importantly are they sex linked. LOL!

  4. #24
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    Thank you! I was beating my brain trying to remember the term polygenic. It was on the tip of my tongue the whole time writing that up... driving me nuts. While gargs are not exactly polygenic from my understanding its very good way of explaining it.

    From my notes I have kept while breeding them I have come up with some basic outline of probabilities. This is from my own experiences and speaking with other breeders. By no means is it 'scientific' just seems to hold true.

    Stripe x stripe = will normally produce supers at some point.
    Stripe x retic = mostly stripes maybe a few retics and mottled
    Stripe x mottled retic = mostly stripes or mottled
    Stripe x baned = mosaic HOPEFULLY
    All color seems to pass on well but its still a numbers game.The more color on each side the better it will pass on. I have one breeder who has very poor color but came form a high color line and that color seems to pass through them into the offspring even if the parent has little.
    Something to keep in mind... body color takes time to develop (3-8m) while blotch and stripes of color are generally visible at hatch. This is one of the reason the color that stays while fired up and down tends to be more desirable.

    Hope that helps a little.
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  5. #25
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    I hate to be a downer and by no means do I intend for this to be discouraging about breeding, but as a biologist I can assure you that gene mapping, genome sequencing, and the determination of quantitative trait loci is not an easy process at all. In fact, it's an extremely expensive, complicated process that only a few laboratories have the funds and tools to complete. It's very unlikely that the complex inheritance of rhacodactylus will be explored any time soon because there simply isn't that much of a desire or need for this information. Sure, all of us who breed these animals as a hobby would love to know, but the general public couldn't care less. These animals are pet trade animals only and so no lab is going to be able to get NSF (National Science Foundation) or NIH (National Institute of Health) funding to study their inheritance much less sequence the genome and therefore begin the process of gene mapping. Without funding for the numerous animals that would be necessary and the hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment required this scope of a project is simply impossible. At this point in time, careful observation and records by breeders is the most that can be done for any of the Rhacodactylus geckos as far as genetic inheritance goes.

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    I completely agree. I didn't expect to map the Gargoyle Gecko genome but there's gotta be something else that can be done. I'm wondering if there is a probability calculation that can be made, knowing the geneology of the breeders in question. I mean, without a genome map it seems to me you could run the numbers somehow and get an idea anyway. And is there dominance and recessive in polygenic inheritance? I know it isn't as simple as "Stripe is epistatic to Retic" but all gene counts being equal, somethings gotta win, right? Like I said earlier, I don't quite get the whole wikipedia article on polygenics but it seemed to me there was a "simpler" probability type mapping you could do. Am I way off base here?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by phillyfish View Post
    I completely agree. I didn't expect to map the Gargoyle Gecko genome but there's gotta be something else that can be done. I'm wondering if there is a probability calculation that can be made, knowing the geneology of the breeders in question. I mean, without a genome map it seems to me you could run the numbers somehow and get an idea anyway. And is there dominance and recessive in polygenic inheritance? I know it isn't as simple as "Stripe is epistatic to Retic" but all gene counts being equal, somethings gotta win, right? Like I said earlier, I don't quite get the whole wikipedia article on polygenics but it seemed to me there was a "simpler" probability type mapping you could do. Am I way off base here?
    Unfortunately, when polygenetics and epigenetics is occurring simple probability mapping just isn't possible. There are too many modifiers and external, environmental factors that are affecting gene expression. The variability introduced by all of the confounding factors makes it impossible to accurately predict inheritance because a single cell or organism is not going to experience the exact environmental conditions of a second cell or organism and therefore gene expression will likely differ between the two in manners that are unpredictable without a sequenced, mapped genome.

  8. #28
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    Well that is a bummer. But thanks for sharing your knowledge. It is GREATLY appreciated. Do you know if it is possible in a species that is polygenic or epigenic that some traits are still simple and follow the basic Mendellian rules of inheritance?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by phillyfish View Post
    Well that is a bummer. But thanks for sharing your knowledge. It is GREATLY appreciated. Do you know if it is possible in a species that is polygenic or epigenic that some traits are still simple and follow the basic Mendellian rules of inheritance?
    Thanks, it's nice to know that all of that genetics I learned has some use! Technically speaking, a trait itself is epigenetic, polygenetic, or simply inherited, not the entire species. There are many species that show all types of inheritance: humans are a great example! For instance, height is highly epigenetic and polygenetic: a number of factors play into determination of a individual's final height, including nutrition, exercise, growth hormone production, etc. But, humans also have traits that show classic Mendelian genetics such as earlobe structure. Having attached earlobes is recessive, while unattached earlobes is dominant. Another one is the ability to roll the tongue; 75% of people can roll their tongue into a cylindrical shape; 25% are unable to because they are homozygous recessive (they have two recessive alleles, where an allele is merely a form of a gene) that prevents the muscles that control the rolling motion from functioning properly.

  10. #30
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    So the next question is... Any simple genetics traits found in Rhacs yet? The boon of course being a sex linked characteristic. When I was raising lovebirds and now pigeons it certainly helps to know the gender right at hatching.

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