Page 1 of 8 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 76

Thread: Localities...

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,966
    Thanks
    290
    Thanked 98 Times in 40 Posts

    Default Localities...

    So in my boredom... I had to do it, I had to make a post asking everyone here to voice their opinion on localities, of chewies, of leachies, whatever.

    So really, is there any reason (other than keeping the lines pure) to not cross lines of Chahouas or Leachies? And what are all of the benefits of keeping a line pure?

    I would imagine there is a huge list of benefits since it seems as though many people vehemently defend animals of a pure heritage.

    Is there some sort of serious disadvantage to crossing localities that I'm not aware of?

    Also, were ciliatus and auriculatus all from the same locale? They are described by their color/morph, is this because they all came from the same exact location and we weren't able to 'localize' them?


    I did some wikipedia research and this is what I found:
    There are three populations (of Rhac. Ciliatus), one found on the Isle of Pines and surrounding islets, and there are two populations found on the main island of Grande Terre. One population is around the Blue River, which is a protected provincial park, and the other is further north, just south of Mount Dzumac.

    Which population is the captive crested gecko from? And if they are from different locales, does that mean it wasn't such a big deal after all?

    Just something to think about... don't get me wrong, I am not going to rush out and mix locales, but I want to know everyone's honest opinion on the subject...

    And please kids, play nice

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    1,950
    Thanks
    27
    Thanked 96 Times in 50 Posts

    Default

    I posed a similar topic a few weeks ago but never really got much response.

    Recently I have been reading through different articles on Leachianus genetics and started drawing a few parallels between those animals and Chahoua. In the beginning only 1-2 pairs of some Leachianus locales were imported, so years later the gene pools for these animals are becoming depressed from inbreeding in an effort to keep the lines pure. The lack of genetic diversity for many of these locales is what has led several people to start crossing them. There are some who say that they should be trying to keep these lines pure no matter the cost or damage that is done, while there are others saying that it's important to outcross for the longevity of the species and health of individuals.

    These considerations bring me to Chahoua, of which the Mainland variety is known to have a very limited genetic pool. I am sure that many of us have seen some sad looking mainland individuals with gouged eyes, small size and weight, underbites, etc. The effects have been even worse in some instances. I have been doing a good bit of research trying to find a mainland female but almost every gecko can be traced back to the same breeder, which is concerning.

    Put simply: what do Pangea members think about crossing Pine Isle Chahoua with those from Mainland populations, in an effort to get fresh blood? I know that it has probably already been done by individuals who didn't know any better or even those who did so intentionally, but has anyone here done this already? Does anyone have plans to do so? What are the long term effects of either doing this, or not doing it?
    Charming Chewies: Specializing in Grand Terre and Pine Isle locales of chahoua.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    472
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts

    Default

    The reasons i've heard/read are because they are nearly subspecies status and to cross them would prevent what was already starting in nature. However, I personally feel this is a false statement. If the animals got there, what's to say they can't get back? Meaning if leachies started on Grand Terre and in a storm a gravid female made it to Isle de Pines thus starting the Pine island local, how do we know another storm didn't come along and blow some "pine" animals back to Grand Terre?? Also, as far as I've seen genetic testing has proven them to be nearly identical. The only amount of genetic drift is normal in populations of animals with a limited gene pool. So basically, I think the original founders of the american captive population wanted to make them more special then they were and possibly even make more money off claiming they were practically a subspecies and needed to be preserved. But that's my take on it. I don't own any leachies but I do breed chahouas. I have kept my lines "pure" only because I do need to sell the babies and from a financial viewpoint it does not make sense to have difficulty selling animals, or have to sell them for less when I can just as easily keep them "pure" and sell them for more more easily. However, in recent years there has been a change in the opinions of this "pure breeding" effort. I have noticed many people are now concerned with mainland chahoua lines, but are still in love with their colors. Due to this change in attitude, some breeders are now crossing the two to offer the best of both worlds to those keepers that do not care about locales. I have been breeding chahouas in particular for 7 years now, and will be doing my first pine x mainland pairs this year in response to this new demand.
    As far as the crested info goes, I find that very interesting that no one has mentioned that before. Though a similar situation did arise with leopard geckos a long time ago when keepers did not realize they had animals which i believe are actually different subspecies (don't quote me i'm not 100%!). It would be interesting to hear what other big breeders opinion is on that.
    Rhachic
    www.goodlifeherps.weebly.com
    specializing in rhacodactylus

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Thank God back on the East Coast!!
    Posts
    2,285
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post

    Default

    This is a topic that my husband and I have discussed many times.

    I have 1 mainland pair that fit very close to the "mainland description" of smaller, darker, less pattern but are still really beautiful animals with no outward appearance of genetic problems. (I have personally seen some very poor looking mainlands).

    Then the rest of my chahouas are PI save for an unknown locale, what does that mean. I'm not sure...maybe the breeder knew one was PI and one mainland, wasn't sure or it appears one is mainland. Or it was just bought by someone who didn't know the original breeder and didn't want to claim PI pure and then have it turn out not.

    I have seen PI that look more like mains and mains that look like PI. Mike from dragontown has a STUNNING mainland that if he had not said mainland in the pic I would have put down money that it was a pine.

    The rhac bible says there are no differnces save for size reached in captivity and at times brighter colors. When asking people that have been into rhacs much longer than I they say they can tell, pines have longer snouts, larger size and mains eyes bulge a little.

    So all that said, because there does seem to be a strong desire to keep it clean. I will sell my mains as mains, my pines as such and my unknown as an unknown. I don't know the sex yet so I will either set that one up with another unknown or a pine. Truthfully I wish it was more acceptable so that the mains could achieve more genetic diversity.
    Specializing in R. Chahoua

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    WI
    Posts
    2,854
    Thanks
    241
    Thanked 265 Times in 93 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MPLexus301 View Post

    I have been doing a good bit of research trying to find a mainland female but almost every gecko can be traced back to the same breeder, which is concerning.
    Which breeder? Is it Tremper Because somewhere along the line, Phil Tremper must have had dozens of chahoua.

    In four completely seperate instances, in four unrelated animals, when asked whose line they are, I was told Tremper each time. I thought there were other bigger named breeders working with chahoua, at the same time as Phil? Why have his animals flooded the market?
    Meg
    THE GECKO ALCHEMIST
    on facebook

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Western, PA
    Posts
    2,146
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts

    Default

    It seems like all this post leads to is more questions being asked. Personaly I have no problem with leachie crosses. Why? I guess I have no real reason I just don't see a problem with it. I've never kept chewies nor do I plan to so I have no comment when it comes to them.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    1,950
    Thanks
    27
    Thanked 96 Times in 50 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhachic View Post
    The reasons i've heard/read are because they are nearly subspecies status and to cross them would prevent what was already starting in nature. However, I personally feel this is a false statement. If the animals got there, what's to say they can't get back? Meaning if leachies started on Grand Terre and in a storm a gravid female made it to Isle de Pines thus starting the Pine island local, how do we know another storm didn't come along and blow some "pine" animals back to Grand Terre?? Also, as far as I've seen genetic testing has proven them to be nearly identical. The only amount of genetic drift is normal in populations of animals with a limited gene pool. So basically, I think the original founders of the american captive population wanted to make them more special then they were and possibly even make more money off claiming they were practically a subspecies and needed to be preserved. But that's my take on it. I don't own any leachies but I do breed chahouas. I have kept my lines "pure" only because I do need to sell the babies and from a financial viewpoint it does not make sense to have difficulty selling animals, or have to sell them for less when I can just as easily keep them "pure" and sell them for more more easily. However, in recent years there has been a change in the opinions of this "pure breeding" effort. I have noticed many people are now concerned with mainland chahoua lines, but are still in love with their colors. Due to this change in attitude, some breeders are now crossing the two to offer the best of both worlds to those keepers that do not care about locales. I have been breeding chahouas in particular for 7 years now, and will be doing my first pine x mainland pairs this year in response to this new demand.
    As far as the crested info goes, I find that very interesting that no one has mentioned that before. Though a similar situation did arise with leopard geckos a long time ago when keepers did not realize they had animals which i believe are actually different subspecies (don't quote me i'm not 100%!). It would be interesting to hear what other big breeders opinion is on that.
    Great post...keep me updated on your cross babies this year! Goliath says hi
    Charming Chewies: Specializing in Grand Terre and Pine Isle locales of chahoua.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    1,950
    Thanks
    27
    Thanked 96 Times in 50 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by laura View Post
    This is a topic that my husband and I have discussed many times.

    I have 1 mainland pair that fit very close to the "mainland description" of smaller, darker, less pattern but are still really beautiful animals with no outward appearance of genetic problems. (I have personally seen some very poor looking mainlands).

    Then the rest of my chahouas are PI save for an unknown locale, what does that mean. I'm not sure...maybe the breeder knew one was PI and one mainland, wasn't sure or it appears one is mainland. Or it was just bought by someone who didn't know the original breeder and didn't want to claim PI pure and then have it turn out not.

    I have seen PI that look more like mains and mains that look like PI. Mike from dragontown has a STUNNING mainland that if he had not said mainland in the pic I would have put down money that it was a pine.

    The rhac bible says there are no differnces save for size reached in captivity and at times brighter colors. When asking people that have been into rhacs much longer than I they say they can tell, pines have longer snouts, larger size and mains eyes bulge a little.

    So all that said, because there does seem to be a strong desire to keep it clean. I will sell my mains as mains, my pines as such and my unknown as an unknown. I don't know the sex yet so I will either set that one up with another unknown or a pine. Truthfully I wish it was more acceptable so that the mains could achieve more genetic diversity.
    Great post. I had some time last weekend and read through the Chahoua section of the Rhac bible and learned a few new things. They state that there were not enough genetic differences to label PIs and Mainlands as different species, and that they are (obviously) extremely, extremely similar.

    You touched on it in your post, but I have seen some incredible looking, and very large, Mainland animals and plenty of smaller, less spectacular, PI individuals- animals that "defy the stereotype" if you will. Obviously this will vary breeder to breeder, lineage to lineage, but I for one would love to see what some of the Mainland and PI crosses would yield. Some of the greens, reds, and pastels would be very interesting when mixed, I think. Not to mention that the genetic diversity, or lack thereof, in Mainland animals is concerning to me and crossing with a PI would create a hearty, healthy baby.

    I am one for function over form when it comes to animals, and would highly consider crossing blood lines if the result was a healthier animal with greater genetic diversity, as opposed to "staying pure" and doing potential damage. I think some Mainland breeders really are at the point of causing damage, but I guess that is for those people to determine. Obviously a big part of this debate having enough animals and a large enough collection to breed responsibly...only problem is that these suckers are expensive!
    Charming Chewies: Specializing in Grand Terre and Pine Isle locales of chahoua.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    1,145
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts

    Default

    I really have little to no experience with locales, so my opinion might not mean anything, but I feel that limiting the gene pool with the constant inbreeding is the same thing as producing hybrids. We are still playing god.

    If mainlands are known to have shallow gene pools and this is causing poor traits to surface more frequently, than we should somehow put a stop to that before it becomes irreversable.

    I'm sure the different locales make it to the opposite islands from time to time and become part of the breeding colonies.

    Playing god is playing god no matter how you look at it. Keeping the locales apart is just as unnatural as keeping them together. Catch 22.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    1,950
    Thanks
    27
    Thanked 96 Times in 50 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by meg90 View Post
    Which breeder? Is it Tremper Because somewhere along the line, Phil Tremper must have had dozens of chahoua.

    In four completely seperate instances, in four unrelated animals, when asked whose line they are, I was told Tremper each time. I thought there were other bigger named breeders working with chahoua, at the same time as Phil? Why have his animals flooded the market?
    Yep. All Tremper!
    Charming Chewies: Specializing in Grand Terre and Pine Isle locales of chahoua.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •