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Thread: garg x cresty? has it been done?

  1. #81
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    I personally do not consider it QT unless they are kept in a separate room. Sorry for the confusion guys! Then that would mean my animals are in QT all the time, LOL. Of course my pairs are together, but they came from the same person, so it doesn't matter.
    Abigail McDufford
    Wallflower Herpetoculture / iHerp

  2. #82
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    Default Eating my words

    Quote Originally Posted by hupababy83 View Post
    my thought is... if it won't happen in the wild, DON'T DO IT
    Ok, i just wanna say that a few weeks ago I read an online article that does state hybrids happen in the wild. They are not very common, but they do happen, not only with geckos, but other reptile species and mammals. their is a huge debate going on about the rattle snake and kingsnake hybrids. So not only am i eating my earlier statement of "if it wont happen in the wild...." I bought me a handsome red boy, Crested/and chauha X, he'll be arriving next week. I will not be breeding any Hybrids! THIS MALE IS A DISPLAY ANIMAL AND PET ONLY!!!!! But I had the balls to stand up, swallow my pride and correct myself. Thank you for reading this embarrassing crow eating.

    Respectfully,
    Betty Scott
    0.1 Human- Kyrah, 3.1 Crested Geckos, 0.2.1 Tokay, 1.1 Uromastyx, 0.1 Ball Python, 0.0.1 leachy, 1.0 chewie/crested hybrid, 2.2 RTB, 1.0 golden gecko

  3. #83
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    I have read many posts on this subject and my personal feeling on this is that most people seem to be doing this for their own amusement (they look cool, shock value etc...). I don't see any real references to scientific research or valuable purpose for hybridization other than leachie genepools which some feel are monotypic. Human nature sucks and I just don't buy any explanations being given in favor of this type of hybridization being discussed.

  4. #84
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    Not all hybrids are equal. Some display better fitness than their parents and proliferate, and it is possible that species fusion could occur if all of the individuals eventually possess a mixture of genetic material and breed freely.

    Others are inviable, meaning that they do not survive to maturity, which sounds like the case with the garg x crestie hybrids. Now that we know this, it seems cruel to me to keep trying to create these. Even if you produce one whose legs aren't messed up or whatever, do you really think it will be that much healthier overall? No, it's unlikely. It is unquestionably cruel to crossbreed with species like this whose common ancestor is further back, meaning that their genetic material is less compatible. These creatures are not meant to be and that is why they die so young. It's a biological term called "reinforcement," which means that nature is selecting against them because they are not meant to be.

    Then, there are some hybrids that are viable but sterile, like the mule. These are probably the MOST okay to produce.

    I see both sides, depending on the type of hybrid in question. While it would be unlikely that we would lose our pure gene pool, it IS possible. If someone produces a crestie x sara, then sells it and someone else backcrosses to crestie until it could be mistaken for a crestie by a novice and then they breed it to their own collection and sell the offspring to more customers and the cycle continues, we could all eventually be putting sara blood into our collections without even being aware of it.

    So... there is nothing anyone can do about others producing hybrids, but if you do produce hybrids, as a responsible breeder, you should be 100% aware of what you are doing, document (or microchipping was a cool idea) everything, and educate others. There are plenty of irresponsible people who jump into the hybrid scene because the results look "cool," (not talking about anyone in particular here), but it's possible for responsible people to get involved, too.

    Just know what you're getting involved in. Most hobbyists do not like the idea of hybridization and will not support your business, or hesitate to tell you why. If this is not a concern for you and you still feel strongly about it and believe that you could do it responsibly, kudos to you. Just tell us all about it so we can all learn from it.

    Personally, I would stay out of it. I'd rather just let nature decide what should be and what should not when it comes to the topic of hybrids.

    -L

  5. #85
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    I might just be helping to revive an old post on a very touchy subject, but I think debating hybrids is important. There are a lot of misconceptions about this topic. What we are doing as reptile keepers isn't "natural". That doesn't equate to bad or wrong. I would much rather give my geckos an unnatural life in captivity than have them try to duke it out in nature! I want to make them "happy" and comfortable, reducing stress as much as possible. Other people may have other opinions on how to keep their animals, and I don't want to judge them as right and wrong (besides neglect and outright abuse).

    There are serious consequences of hybridization that has affected many circles of animal husbandry as well as population dynamics in the wild.

    If anyone's interested in the science behind hybrids in wild populations, I would recommend this post starting on page 7 where slygecko debunks a lot of the misconceptions on hybrids.

    If you look at animals as the results of individual genes instead of "lumping" them into taxa it really gets very interesting.
    Specializing in Crested Geckos
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  6. #86
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    That was a very interesting convo., Spyral. I personally feel rather ambivalent about it all, though I have no reason or desire to crossbreed. I'll leave that decision to the experts.
    Dagan. Illumination Exotics Facebook. iHerp. Artwork.
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  7. #87
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    There are some pretty strong arguments against doing it, not because it is unnatural, but because we are relying on others to create a captive genepool that is already limited because of legal restrictions or rarity in nature.

    If we ever get to the point where we can easily and cheaply do genetic tests, I think it wouldn't be a problem and would be more of a philosophical debate.

    However, I support responsible people who chose to do it despite the risks.
    Specializing in Crested Geckos
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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spyral View Post
    There are some pretty strong arguments against doing it, not because it is unnatural, but because we are relying on others to create a captive genepool that is already limited because of legal restrictions or rarity in nature.
    I understand this argument very well. The unnatural argument I am iffy on.

    The thing is--your responsible individuals will keep track of the genetics. The irresponsible people are going to mix genes and then sell them as full cresties or full chahouas/gargs/etc. I don't see how one can prevent them from doing it.
    Dagan. Illumination Exotics Facebook. iHerp. Artwork.
    ~Illumination Exotics~

  9. #89
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    There will always be irresponsible breeders. Education and an open forum for discussion will help more than a strict rejection of the practice.

    In the case of rhacs, there doesn't seem to be a lot gained in the crossbreeding in terms of mislabeling them. A 50-50 hybrid is going to look different and from what has been seen with more diluted hybrids there's no advantage in looks.

    I can see the possibility of a super secret hybridization project where people may be trying to breed in exotic colors in crested geckos, but I think if that does happen people will be suspicious.

    Still, speculation. I'd rather have information on what to look out for in terms of hybrids, and that only comes about through making them...
    Specializing in Crested Geckos
    Working with Uromastyx | Uroplatus | PI Chahoua
    Also keeping: Australian Shepherds (Chester & Sadie)
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  10. #90
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    Hi there all,

    A very interesting thread. I have seen some hybrids that had very interesting colouration and wondered why more had not been done. After reading this I can see why. Just to give my two cents:

    1. I know of a variety of situations where well intended people have unintentionally done considerable damage to nature and specific species by being uniniformed or by assuming nothing would go wrong.

    2. If creating hybrids means culling a higher percentage of hatchlings due to deformations etc. then to me it is wrong.

    3. Concerning the concept of giving papers to cresties I do not know enough to know whether or not that would work, but I would think anyone seriously considering a breeding project would be more comfortable buying breeding stock from someone who can provide the parenting of gecko to be purchased. So in that sence I think it is a good idea.

    I know this thread got a little passionate at times - to me that is a good thing so long as we all avoid personal judgements etc. This is a topic that needs to be discussed.

    If anyone is interested in the science behind some of these arguments I would really suggest reading the post povided by Spyral in post number 85. Thanks Spyral very helpful for separating fact from fiction.
    Eric
    1.2.7.4 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
    1.0 Phelsuma laticauda

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