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Thread: CALCIUM AND VITAMIN D3 -What you need to know.

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by b4iwascrzy View Post
    Huh? Did I misread this - saw a reference to ReptiCal - do you mean ZooMed's ReptiCalcium + d3 is bad gor crickie dusting? Purchased this at Orlando Repticon by an A+ (at least I thought) vendor. Thanks! Jen
    Zoo Meds ReptiCalcium is perfectly fine, it's what I use too.

    Quote Originally Posted by geckosuit View Post
    I'm using Flukers Calcium with D3 once a week on crickets. The label says 100,000 IU/pound is this one okay?
    That is a little over 45,000 iu/kg. That should be fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by docwade87 View Post
    I know this subject has been well covered in this thread, but Allen Repashy put things into a better perspective that may help people understand this a little more. Plus if you use UVB on your tanks for plant health or more lighting this will help out a lot too!

    "Try looking at it this way. If you have a glass and fill it with a liquid that represents the blood levels of 25OHD3 (how it is measured in the body). you can make a pretty good analogy.

    So we can fill the jar, by adding UVB, which is converted into 25OHD3, or we can add vitamin D supplementation..... which is converted into 25OHD3

    The main difference is the mechanism of conversion.

    UVB, when used to fill the glass, will automatically shut off when the glass is full.

    Vitamin D Supplementation, when used to fill the glass, will overflow the glass if too much is used. So what spills over would cause toxicity... as in Hypervitamintosis.

    So when combined, UVB and Vitamin D can work together, and as long as the Supplementation doesn't overfill the glass, we are fine, because the UVB added will just top off the glass so to speak and not let it overflow.

    Now if we go back to the glass, we can say that, for example, as long as the glass is between 3/4 full, and topped off, we have a healthy level of 25OHD3 in the body. If we have half a glass, then we are deficient (Hypovitamintosis vitamin D)

    So without UVB, we need to use supplementation to keep that glass between 3/4 and topped off, which is no easy task. The supplementation requirements for different species are different, and our goal as caretakers, is to develop the right products and regiments to reach these levels.

    It is my opinion that it is better to err to the high side of filling the glass vs. the low side because toxicity is far less of a risk than deficiency.

    I believe that all reptiles, including geckos can convert UVB to 25OHD3, but the efficiency of different species could be quite varied. Different herps have obviously adapted to live with less UVB than others, but I have seen countless geckos in the field basking in early morning, or evening sun.

    We can also have the scenario, where we do provide UVB and Supplementation, but there isn't enough UVB to top off the glass, or reach that important 3/4 full level..... so supplementation can insure that less than optimal levels of UVB are sufficient to still top off the glass or keep it near topped off.

    Also, without supplementation, low levels of UVB that can't get the glass up to 3/4 full, will cause deficiency (Hypovitamintosis D)

    Anyways, to sum it up, we have two ways to fill that cup, and they can be combined to provide more accuracy than supplementation alone. Many UVB bulbs are used way beyond the point that they put out usable UVB, so I always recommend suppplementation of at least low levels of D3 even when uvb is used (I am not referring to natural unfiltered sunlight here)

    As long as you don't use enough D3 to overflow the cup, all you are doing by adding UVB is topping things off... with no risk of Hypervitamintosis. The only real risk is over-supplementation, and the only way to do this is to develop the right protocols from experience and good products.

    I will add a disclaimer here that this is only my personal opinion based on my research and experiences."

    Solvent, Stellar post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by docwade87 View Post
    I know this subject has been well covered in this thread, but Allen Repashy put things into a better perspective that may help people understand this a little more. Plus if you use UVB on your tanks for plant health or more lighting this will help out a lot too!

    "Try looking at it this way. If you have a glass and fill it with a liquid that represents the blood levels of 25OHD3 (how it is measured in the body). you can make a pretty good analogy.

    So we can fill the jar, by adding UVB, which is converted into 25OHD3, or we can add vitamin D supplementation..... which is converted into 25OHD3

    The main difference is the mechanism of conversion.

    UVB, when used to fill the glass, will automatically shut off when the glass is full.

    Vitamin D Supplementation, when used to fill the glass, will overflow the glass if too much is used. So what spills over would cause toxicity... as in Hypervitamintosis.

    So when combined, UVB and Vitamin D can work together, and as long as the Supplementation doesn't overfill the glass, we are fine, because the UVB added will just top off the glass so to speak and not let it overflow.

    Now if we go back to the glass, we can say that, for example, as long as the glass is between 3/4 full, and topped off, we have a healthy level of 25OHD3 in the body. If we have half a glass, then we are deficient (Hypovitamintosis vitamin D)

    So without UVB, we need to use supplementation to keep that glass between 3/4 and topped off, which is no easy task. The supplementation requirements for different species are different, and our goal as caretakers, is to develop the right products and regiments to reach these levels.

    It is my opinion that it is better to err to the high side of filling the glass vs. the low side because toxicity is far less of a risk than deficiency.

    I believe that all reptiles, including geckos can convert UVB to 25OHD3, but the efficiency of different species could be quite varied. Different herps have obviously adapted to live with less UVB than others, but I have seen countless geckos in the field basking in early morning, or evening sun.

    We can also have the scenario, where we do provide UVB and Supplementation, but there isn't enough UVB to top off the glass, or reach that important 3/4 full level..... so supplementation can insure that less than optimal levels of UVB are sufficient to still top off the glass or keep it near topped off.

    Also, without supplementation, low levels of UVB that can't get the glass up to 3/4 full, will cause deficiency (Hypovitamintosis D)

    Anyways, to sum it up, we have two ways to fill that cup, and they can be combined to provide more accuracy than supplementation alone. Many UVB bulbs are used way beyond the point that they put out usable UVB, so I always recommend suppplementation of at least low levels of D3 even when uvb is used (I am not referring to natural unfiltered sunlight here)

    As long as you don't use enough D3 to overflow the cup, all you are doing by adding UVB is topping things off... with no risk of Hypervitamintosis. The only real risk is over-supplementation, and the only way to do this is to develop the right protocols from experience and good products.

    I will add a disclaimer here that this is only my personal opinion based on my research and experiences."

    Someone, please, correct me if I am wrong, but what I take from this is that if one was to provide UVB lighting for their Rhac, then they would not have to worry about D3 (or overdosing) and could just supplement with plain calcium for insects, or when adding extra calcium after egg laying, etc...?

    I understand that UVB bulbs are often used past their usefulness in putting out UVB and that some D3 is good, but as the various diets contain some D3, extra D3 "to top up that glass" could be provided just by the UVB bulb with no risk of overdosing? Obviously, one would have to pay attention to the bulb life carefully...

    I know they don't require UVB lighting, but providing it sound like a better idea the more I read about things and it would not be a big deal to add it... that said, as most rhacs are nocturnal, would the exposure even do anything when most of them spend the lights on hours hiding in the dark in their cork rounds?

    I ask this specifically as I have a leachie who had MDB when I got her, and though she is doing great now (despite her slightly crooked back), I always worry about her and calcium. She recently, about 7 months after we got her, at only just over a year and a half of age, laid two well formed eggs (to our great surprise, we just thought she was putting on weight like a champ in our care), but I always worry about her and calcium, especially after having MDB at such a young age, yet am really scared about over supplementing, especially with D3. I add a little extra Zoo Med Repti-Calcium w/ D3 to her meals every week or so, and for a couple days after she laid her eggs, but obviously I don't want to risk over doing anything, and now feel that risk would be less if I just used plain calcium for extra supplementation and gave her some UVB lighting as well.

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    If you are feeding a properly balanced diet, such as Repashy CGD or Pangea Fruit Mix Complete, you could probably just use additional calcium (no D3) combined with UVB.

    The danger would be in relying on UVB for all of their D3 needs. It's been done with other basking animals very well. However, due to being nocturnal it's questionable they would get enough exposure to provide everything that they need. Even the best UVB bulbs aren't as good as the sun, and in the wild very brief exposure could provide more than enough.

    However, in your scenario I think that eliminating or reducing the calcium with D3 would be fine.
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    Several people through this thread have recommended using the calcium with d3 dusted on crickets when we feed them to our geckos but what about worms. Should we be dusting them as well? I have been dusting my worms but now I'm unsure if I should be doing so.

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    Depends on the type of "worm". If you mean earthworms, they do not need to be dusted as they have a good calcium to phosphorus ratio. If they are specifically Phoenix Worms (brand name for Soldier Fly larvae, also called Calci-worms) you should dust. Most feeder insects have a very poor calcium to phosphorus ratio, which leads to the need to dust.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Parks View Post
    It is already in the food, no need to supplement it.

    If one is breeding geckos is there a need to suplement with dusted crickets? Also I don't see that my geckos are aggressive eaters of the cgd. I want to keep them healthy but the more I think about it the less I want to go into bug farming also.

    Love the idea of the repashy insect/ grub jell but not the price or the huge ingredient list, the chemistry set part. I have access to cricket flour, dried soldier fly larvae ( I think they use this), unflavored jello as well as various powdered fruits.

    I'm thinking of trying to mix my own, But I'm uncertain of how to calculate the amount of calcium powder element.....but then if I use bsf, I may mot need any?
    Last edited by DadnDaughter; 05-11-2015 at 05:48 PM. Reason: Clarification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spyral View Post
    Depends on the type of "worm". If you mean earthworms, they do not need to be dusted as they have a good calcium to phosphorus ratio. If they are specifically Phoenix Worms (brand name for Soldier Fly larvae, also called Calci-worms) you should dust. Most feeder insects have a very poor calcium to phosphorus ratio, which leads to the need to dust.
    This is counter to my research/ understanding of the bsf. They have the highest calcium balance of comercially available feeders, do they not?

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    Should I continue to offer Pangea Complete diets in a tank which has a UV light? The light is the correct strength for the species. I just wondered if that might overdose the animal. Also, can an animal be easily overdosed with Calcium? Because I'm imagining that a UV lit terrarium and an animal that receives dietary D3 is better getting plenty of calcium.

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