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Thread: Leachianus "hybrids"

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    Default Leachianus "hybrids"

    Ok question for everyone. We have had the Hybrid debate on this forum before and the overwhelming majority of people said they had no problems with people hybridizing cresteds with other species. But it seems that everyone has problems with people crossing the different types of Leachies. And with Leachies we're just dealing with locality types and debatably sub-species. Definitely not as drastic as crossing two completely seperate species. It would seem to me that the argument for genetic vigor from "hybridizing" would apply to cross breeding the different types of Leachies way more than creating a new species through true hybridization. I havn't decided whether to get into Leachies or not but I don't want to be bound by breeding only certain locality types. If I can't selectively breed for certain traits then it's really no fun for me. Anyways I'd love to here your feedback on this, and I'm not attacking anyone, I just would like to hear from the "Leachie" community on this subject.

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    I THINK IT WOULD GREAT TO SELECTIVLY BREED THEM FOR TRAIT'S

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    Here are my views on the subject:

    Those of us in the leachie realm understand that quite a few of the locales available in captivity are either near extinction or nor longer available in the wild. While I have no real problem with hybridizing the leachianus complex, I see it leading to issues of pure locales becoming non-existant and alot of animals being sold with unknown lineages. There are only a few people that have "original lines" (Repashy, Fast, Vosjoli, etc.) These people spent alot of time and money making sure the original stock was as close to the locale descript as possible. I see hybridizing as a trouble brewing in general as some people don't keep good enough record books (Not pointing @ you Matt), to keep lines as clean as possible. My slant is this, if you can and would keep expert documentation of all specimens and there breeding behavior, and sell the animals as hybrids, indicating whenever possible their combination, then I would say go for it. Me personally, I like "clean" lines and that's why it's so hard for my leachie collection to expand.
    -Harold
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    I would like to add that I don't particularly care for R. l. l. x R. l. h. crosses. Very few people have successfully done so and I feel that the risk of an animal getting seriously hurt or killed by it's potential mate, isn't worth it. Just my 2 cents.
    -Harold
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    I think breeding two different locales of the same species is not hybridizing. It's not like crossing a chahoua and a crested. That to me is a hybrid. Chances are alot of people that get leachies in the pet trade are not always sure what locale they are or they are already a locale cross. I got one leachie in a trade that they had no idea what island it was and the other is a nu ana nu ami cross. To me a leachie is a leachie no matter what island. I know in the Rhacodactylus book they said they were crossing for size and color. Just my opinion.

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    Hmmm, that's actually an excellent point, Matt, and one I hadn't thought about before. Just for the record, I support the hybrid interspecies Rhacs ONLY if excellent records are kept, and they don't go back into the original gene pools.

    As for leachianus specifically, I guess the thing that made me against the crossbreeding idea was the fact that so many of the locality types are in danger in the wild or are possibly extinct. However, I know that we can't reintroduce captive geckos into these locales, as it was habitat destruction that was their main problem. So that can't be part of my reason for disliking it.

    I thought about it for a while and I think one of the biggest reasons I dislike the hybridization is because I want to know what I'm getting. Leachie prices are a very large outlay of resources for me. I'm sure I'll have more disposable income in the future but still, if I'm paying that much, I want to know I'll get certain traits, and pure locality is one way to do that.

    Personally, and this is based on nothing but preference, if I buy a member of the largest gecko species in the world, I want it to be as big as possible! I am really only interested in R. leachianus leachianus because of that. I guess when it comes down to it, I am more interested in traits than locale. I just mistrust the bulk of people who are mixing locales and forgetting to write it down, which we already see out there.

    So, Matt, if you bought known provenance leachies and documented your crosses carefully (which you do already!) and if you had the traits I was looking for, I'd buy from you regardless of whether they were hybridized. And with the fairly small gene pool of leachies nationwide, I see the point of hybrid vigor.

    Wow, you changed my mind tonight. I never cared about the locality debate in GTPs, so I'm a little surprised I hadn't thought this out before. Kewl.
    "Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight;
    You gotta kick at the darkness 'till it bleeds daylight....."
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    When I see a chahouaxcrested cross I look at it and say "Hey there's a hybrid." When I see a leachianus I think "Well...........it's a leachianus." My point being that it's quite hard to tell the locale of a leachianus by looking at it, even for those who have worked with leachies for years. The only reliable way to tell if your leachianus line was pure would be through the records of the breeder you purchased it from (and often times finding a reputable breeder is tough...). I'm not against crossing localities of leachianus as long as those are documented as being hybridized and are kept seperate from pure lines. I still don't understand the need to further cross lines into 75%x25% mixes (by first producing 50x50 hybrids and breeding those to pure animals....), but I suppose that breeders are still trying to find the perfect combination for excellent color and pattern.

    Overall I don't disagree with either form of honest and well documented hybridization, but I don't really want to own either form. I'm a huge fan of exceptional animals that are produced from other exceptional animals, and haven't been tampered with just to achieve the desired look. In my opinion it's like saying "This tree is really nice......but it would be so much nicer shaped like a giraffe." I don't like giraffe shaped trees!! :lol: :wink:
    -Marina York-


    4.3.1 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
    0.0.1 Rhacodactylus chahoua
    0.0.1 Rhacodactylus leachianus leachianus (B)
    1.0.0 ball python
    0.1.0 BCI
    0.2.0 leopard geckos

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    i agree with heraldo.
    i am not particularly fond of "hybridizing", i would never KNOWINGLY purchase an animal that was a hybrid of any sort between species, or even subspecies, for example leachianus leachianus crossed with leachianus henkeli, and knowing weather or not my animals are hybridized is something id want to know, if animals just got thrown together so its cheaper for the general public, then i just see more people buying random animals and throwing them together. yes some breeders keep good records, the vast majority of "casual" breeders, do not. my first reaction to a crested/chahoua hybrid was that it was sick and wrong, its like people trying to breed a boa to a python, why? why mess with that? why would you WANT that? why would you TRY that? sounds to me like it would make for weak genetics. the MOST interesting thing to me about leachies is that EACH LOCAL, has specificly evolved seperate from the next, each has its own traits which are beautiful. now dont get me wrong, im not for "line breeding" either. but to me, it kindof cheapens having a leachie. "this is my mutt leachie, where someone was trying to play god and mix locals, and it created this freak of nature" freak of nature, meaning something that would not NATURALLY occur. yes it might have nice colors, and yes it might have interesting pattern, and maybe you can get it to grow an extra arm or a tail, but what if everyone said "bah, whatever, a leachie is a leachie is a leachie" someday, and someday SOON at the rate we are going, these animals are NOT going to be out there anymore. and well have these pictures of "this is what a bayonese leachianus looked like in the wild" i mean, when you look at it that way, you might as well turn leachies into the next leopard gecko.

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    The whole business of the waters being muddied is already taking place, and island-specific "locale" animals are hard to come by. Go to a show and many or even most of the leachianus available will not be identified as island-specific. Human nature being what it is, people who get the bug and obtain a compatible pair - any compatible pair - will almost certainly breed them regardless of background, and the offspring will indeed be mutts. Attractive, pricey mutts, but mutts. They are not however hybrids, any more than would be puppies produced by breeding a greyhound with a bulldog. In that case, puppies produced would be coming from parents vastly more morphologically distinctive than are leachianus subgroups (breeds if you will), but would be good old Canis familiaris nonetheless.

    Getting into leachianus is a good idea, Matt. I believe there is room for both worlds. By all means, work to develop attractive characteristics by selective breeding without regard for the parents' locale. But I believe you will also find a purist interest and market for as many original subgroup, locale-specific animals as you can produce.......
    ~Alan

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    President Geo. W Bush in an interview with CBS News, Washington D.C., Sept. 6, 2006

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    As far as hybrids go, I'm afraid that my opinion is a little contradictory. While I don't have a HUGE problem with crested x chahoua hybrids (as long as detailed records are kept and it's not bred back to the "pure" gene pool), I would never purchase a "mutt" leachie.

    Perhaps it's because a crested x chahoua hybrid is obviously a hybrid. It is something so different looking that you would have to be a novice not to recognize how different it was. If detailed records are kept on these types of hybrids, I have no problem with them being produced and sold.... AS HYBRIDS. I don't even have a problem with breeding a hybrid to another hybrid (if it can be done and they aren't sterile)... only a problem with breeding a hybrid to "pure" lines. This is where record keeping could get into trouble and the hybrid lines could make their way into the "pure" lines. Not something I want to see. (But will probably happen... if it hasn't already.)

    Leachie "mutts" are different, though. There is so much variety just among the certain locales that can make identification tricky sometimes. Compound that with "mutt" leachies... and the leachie world is a complete mess. While you may be able to get some nifty color patterns, and you (not speaking directly at you, Matt. "You" is just referring to a breeder... any breeder) might even keep immaculate records, however, the next person might not. Even if that person did, the next person might not. Eventually the "pure" line leachies are going to be tainted and you'll never know who looked like what in their natural environment.

    It's hard to explain. (Especially by typing.) However, while I might have feelings of acceptance towards "Obvious" hybrids, the "non-obvious" ones don't have my support at this moment. Just my opinion, even though I know it's pretty contradictory. :wink:
    ~Sarah~
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